Steve Brett: Conversations from the Heart - Honouring Andrew Cohen through our Stories

Welcome to conversations from the heart honoring Andrew Cohen through our stories. My name is Daniela Bomater. I was a student of Andrews for 17 years and for the past nine years I had the privilege of living and working alongside him. This service is a tribute to his life, his teaching, and the evolutionary fire he sparked in so many of us. Through these intimate conversations, we remember not only the man, but the depths of transformation he catalyzed in our lives. May these stories keep his legacy alive, honoring the sacred thread that connects us and allowing his voice to continue resonating through ours. So welcome Steve to this conversations from the heart. Thank you Daniela. Thank you for being here. And uh I was just thinking when I was uh preparing myself for our call. This is the sixth conversations that I'm having. And but there is something very different in this conversation because you are my first conversation partner where I would say we don't really know each other. We we have met. I'm aware of that. Yes. But I wouldn't I think you would agree. I wouldn't say that we know each other. I think that's true. That's true. We we we've met a few times and that's really all we can. Exactly. Exactly. And uh with the five first conversations that I had, I would say I I did know the people. Some were friends, others were people that I knew from from a time in in my life and in our lives. So that's very interesting and therefore I'm very curious where our conversation will go. And uh how I want to start every time is to just ask you how did you meet Andrew? Can you can you speak a little bit about that time? When was it? How was it? How immediately was the connection? What happened then? Sure, I'll be happy to do that because actually that's quite a sort of it laid the ground for my relationship to Andrew, that meeting. Um, I think that's a is a good place to start. So, um, I met Andrew in uh 1986. Um and um I uh I'd been a spiritual seeker since I was pretty much a teenager. Um and I had already been to India India several times and been involved in a in a few different spiritual paths quite intensively. Um however um by the time it got to 1986 uh I was um still felt I was very much a spiritual seeker. I was um I was also doing a psychotherapy training at that time. So I was kind of I decided that I needed to get some work in the world. Um and um but one of the things is that uh I think whenever a spiritual teacher came to the UK that I was interested in, I always used to go and see them because I I was just interested. Um so in terms of Andrew, I I already had heard about Andrew because of Murray who was a very old friend of mine. Uh we we met years before in India and so um Mari told me about Andrew and um I made the decision that I was going to come down and meet him if possible. So um uh I I had absolutely no expectations of this meeting at all. I just was curious. I mean that that was the main thing. It was curiosity. Um and um so I came down, I was living in London. I came down to Totteness, which was where Andrew was um living. Uh he had been in the country quite a short time at that point. And um and also it was very uh he he sort of wasn't really barely started teaching really at that point. Um yeah, it was the year it was the year when he met Punji. No, he met Punji in March. That's right. 1986. So that's that's the same year still. Yes, it was the same year. And this was very young. Exactly. This was November 1986. So right at the beginning of November and I think he'd been in England for for a few months at that point. Mhm. So, um, so Andrew said, you know, Andrew, you know, I I went down and sort of arranged to meet him and then basically what happened was we, uh, I went to his house where he was staying and we went up to his room and we basically uh just talked for a long time. Um uh and he was asking me a lot about my spiritual path, what I'd been doing. And um uh and my memory was we were sitting on this window seat and we were both smoking cigarettes cuz Andrew used to smoke in those days. Yeah. Anyway, um we were just talking and and um at a certain point um my mind stopped completely. it just literally stopped and um and I was like went into a sort of state of shock in a way you know I mean it's hard to explain what that really means but it was a kind of it was almost like just kind of a whole sort of sense of reality opened up before me um and um I so I said I said to Andrew immediately this happened I said to him my mind stopped you know and uh you something like that. And he said to me, "Oh, now we're really communicating." Oh, beautiful. And then so we talked more about it and then um he said, you know, we we talked as this was as was as this was going on. And I think one of the things that was really striking to me was that even though I felt like I was in a completely different state of consciousness, Andrew was completely unfased by this what was happening to me. And I at the same simultaneously I I I felt completely in the same space as him. I mean it's like we were just completely together. So that happened and then he said to me at some point he said you know you've jumped in the river and now you have you now you have to decide what you want to do about it. And then he said but you may not have any choice. So that was basically that was the gist of our conversation. And and then after that I I went down. There was a friend of mine having dinner there. Ala was there. Um I can't exactly remember. I think probably Brad was there but I can't really remember. But anyway, there were a few people having dinner together and and Andrew was there. We all had dinner together and I was like didn't really know where I was. I was in this sort of altered state. Then I went back to London and um basically I started to continue to have these very powerful experiences that were just happening spontaneously. I was like would be sitting on the top of a bus and um I would just go into this very deep sort of meditation space in which everything sort of disappeared you know I mean it was really quite I mean mind-blowing and um so I think that uh and this continued to happen and I was in touch with Andrew and telling him about what was going on and and then of course I went down to see him again and the whole thing continued um not just for me personally, but for many other people that were meeting Andrew at the same time. And um so um yes, so I think for me the significance of all this was was that I I felt like what had happened to me um was um what I've been looking for for many many years and I had not been able to find it. In fact, I had done already years of meditation. um and very serious spiritual practice both betan Buddhism, Buddhism, other forms and kind of teachers that I met um especially in India. Um, but this was really um what I felt like I'd always been looking for and felt like in a way, you know, that kind of pearl beyond price that that, you know, I'd always felt that I'd been drawn to, you know. Um, so you became a finder and you would call it you became a finder. No. Yes. I think Yes. And I think the other thing was that it created this relationship with Andrew which was like nothing I'd ever experienced before. So that was the other side of it wasn't just the experience. It was also the relationship because because he was he was the person who in a way gave me that experience. So it created this bond um immediately really and that just deepened over time. And so that was the that was kind of how it all started. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is nothing like the relationship to end. Yeah. So um I think you know the the heart of all this really has to do with um you know what it means to have a relationship with a guru you know but but a relationship of with a guru who I mean it you know it really was hard to get my head around the whole thing because you know also Andrew was a westerner he wasn't Indian he was younger than me um and everything about it was completely out of my frame of reference you Yeah. Couldn't ignore the reality of what happened and and what was created between us as a result of this experience having happened, you know. Yeah. So that was really the beginning. Yeah. What you are describing I can very much relate to because it's the relationship to the guru is something on a in a different category of relationship. know it it it it happens and then it's a reality and it cannot be neglected. It cannot be you cannot push it back. You cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It's it's so deep. You can't and I didn't have any any interest. I mean I didn't want to do that either because um I mean I think the other thing just to say that was very significant at that time was that there were quite a number of people that were that had had this same experience that I had had. And so very quickly there was this community that was happening around Andrew that in which there was this sharing of this experience and that was really so we were drawn to each other and drawn to sharing the experience and understanding it more deeply between each other. And that was like a really the how the whole community came into being was very much from that place where um uh we were just on fire with this recognition and its significance as a collective you know as a group of Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about how how this community or the song built up there at the beginning? Was it quickly growing or what what was the how would you describe it and how did people come together and what happened? Well, the thing is that um when I first met Andrew, it was very small and Andrew was teaching in his living room and people slowly it just got bigger and bigger and still it until it started to almost burst at the seams because there were so many people because everybody was talking about what was happening and you know so anybody who was interested in this were drawn to come and find out. So it grew very quickly and um and I mean the the interesting thing about Andrew at that time was that he was in a way as surprised himself by all of this as we were. So he was he was in in a very innocent place and very um speaking from a a a place of really not knowing. You know he really was speaking from that place very directly. And I think that's what made the teachings so powerful and why people had these experiences because he was coming from this very pure place and um and it carried this transmission which was very powerful. So people it very it gathered very quickly and um and uh the other thing was that we were we were all in this altered state. So we would stay up all you know till very late at night just we wouldn't sleep much because the more we talked about this shared experience the more um uh we energized we became in a way. So Mhm. So there's but there was a very significant moment actually um for me as I look back on on on the whole thing was [Music] um was when we were in Amsterdam together as a group and there was about 10 of us living in this house in Amsterdam which we just rented while Andrew was giving teachings there which he which was um one of the great periods of that time. And um so what I think the most significant time during that period was when we all um you know we basically we would go to the teachings at night and then we'd sort of spend time not really doing anything because we would so we it was hard to really function even with this experience. So we would basically just, you know, be together and then um we had we invited Andrew over for lunch as a group to our house where we were all staying. And um there was about probably about 15 20 people or something, I can't remember exactly, probably about 15 people. And this was a very significant moment as it turned out in the evolution of Andrew's teaching because during that lunch he looked around the group and I mean I I found out about this later because he he didn't talk about it at the time but he told that story a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. Oh okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a very sign significant moment because basically he realized that that you know um he had this realization that enlightenment wasn't for the individual. It was for the evolution of the human race you know and that was um so this evolutionary kind of understanding came about quite spontaneously in his experience as a result of what he saw was happening between us all. you know, not only the evolutionary part, but I I think even more so the interubjective part that enlightenment was was an intersubjective experience in the end or and then it could be culturally irrelevant and actually change something in the world. No. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. So um so that was uh that was um you know a very significant moment actually in and and I mean you know and Andrew I mean it wasn't you know it was the fact that Andrew was somehow able to perceive this and see its significance that of course is is you know I think what kind of um made him the teacher that he became you know was this was this kind of insight if you like he had about enlightenment and what it meant. So yeah so that was very important. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. He told that this story so many times because he okay I I think he he would feel the same as you described it that this was a very significant moment in his teaching and and for his whole vision that he developed. But I would like to ask you a question related to that time because Andrew often said described it as you just described it that people fell into this uh spontaneous higher states of consciousness and just enjoyed each other's company in the in these heightened states. Yeah. And then he often said, "And I expected everybody to stay there now and be able to hold that that heightened consciousness and we could move on from there together and enlighten the whole world more or less. I mean, and then he often said, but this was not what was happening or or what I was seeing. people were losing it again, whatever losing means. So I would be very curious how this looked like from your point of view. You were in the middle of this swimming in the sea of Python consciousness. Yeah. No, I I mean that I remember that very well. It was um uh I think you know again it was I think Andrew was surprised that that this that people started to get confused or lose touch with what had happened because he kind of he imagined that it would be the same as it was for him. So I think he was surprised by that and I think as a result of that um over a period of time like this now we're going into that when we moved to to America particularly um he he basically um realized that um these experiences weren't enough you know for you know that actually he needed to have something that could actually help people sustain it. Um and and that was how the teaching that was how the teaching sort of evolved because you know he realized that fundamentally this you know what what he called clarative intention. In other words you know knowing that this is more important than anything else was really the foundation of what he realized uh people need to be needed to kind of get clear about. So that that was that was how the teaching started. Um and people also started to meditate as well because up to that point nobody was meditating because everybody was just being carried by this experience. So um yeah I think I think you know what was amazing about Andrew was that he was very open about all of this you know I mean he it was a kind of public exploration that was going on. Wasn't like he was just keeping all this to himself. It was something that was actually we were all talking about, he was talking about with us and we were talking about and it and it became something that made sense I think to everyone you know. Um so yeah was it was it was good. It was very good and very necessary. Yeah. When was that located in time? Uh when when did you move to America? Um I think uh 1988. uh or 1987 888 kind of time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we moved um initially to the to the east coast. We were there for a while and then we moved to the west coast. And what was interesting that whole period is that like several hundred people literally left their lives behind in Europe to move to America and you know including me. Um I was I was actually you know I h I was involved in you know this psychotherapy training which had made no sense to me anymore having had this experience. So I so you know as for a lot of us I think we we decided just to uproot our lives and um move to America and such was the power of this you know experience that we were all sharing. Yeah. And I I was just thinking towards the end a lot of discussions that Andrew and I had uh together was about the importance of the triple gem, the guru, the dharma and the sa as the Buddhists call it. And when I when I hear you talking, it feels like this was already part and parcel of of of what was happening then. the the teaching started to evolve. The guru was there obviously as as the main uh center of of everything and the sa was forming around around him. Yeah. When when you think back how how was the sa functioning? Was it was it uh how was it to be in that community and in that sa was it easy? Was it uh challenging? was it and and what made made it easy and what made it challenging, right? Um it starts to get more complex once we start going into all of this because um basically um I think in the period before when we were all in Europe together um it was a very ecstatic time I would say for everyone um largely um when we moved to the US um it immediately became more serious in a way because partly because so many people had left their lives behind and were very conscious of that. And for me also um I I felt that too um on a sort of existential level. I I kind of sort of felt you know I've left my life my my whole life behind and I think a lot of people felt that. So that was I think it sort of there was this sense of like a real seriousness uh about what the implications of that were that was happening collectively. So that was one that's part of it. Um and also there was there started to become a lot going on in the community as a whole. Um I mean I at the time was living in Andrew's house actually with with a few other people um when we first moved to the States. In fact, I I was one of the first people to go to the States because Andrew wanted me and Brad and a couple of other people to kind of find places for everybody to live and all of that. So I was there from from very early on and then I was living in Andrew's house and then um I think in the light of the well well basically let's just say that Andrew um uh I think Andrew started to to confront students in a way with their with different things that were going on for them. Um and being in Andrew's house, he was um particularly with us that were in his house, we all got actually thrown out like one one after the other and this was like very early on and um so that created a lot of waves and then people there was a lot going on in the different houses in the community. So, so it began to be this combination of the of the of the kind of ecstasy that had continued from from the beginning to um also a lot of people feeling very quite challenged. Um so that was happening also Andrew started to have the men meet separately from the women as well. This was also very early on. Um and that was actually at at that time was very powerful. I mean, I have these memories of us being certainly for the men, you know, going on these walks together, um, you know, in California and it was it was like this feeling that we were sort of treading a new path, you know, in the world thing. It was it was really quite profound. So that was happening as well as you know quite a lot of chaos and uh so forth and challenge for for people in the community you know so all of that was going on. Yeah. What I'm curious about is because we we all know in the end in 2013 it crashed down to to literally nothingness. And what I'm so curious to hear from you is at what at what point when you when you think back, do you think like oh here we or Andrew would have had it in our hands to change something so that it could have been more sustainable. So when you think that what you just described, was at that time was there already like a feeling that this is not totally right or was it still the feeling of yeah this is just this experiment that we are in and uh and that we want to live up to it and we we know why Andrew does what he does. I I tried to kind of with a scalpel to find the point where where things how things went. Yeah. So, um, uh, I think one of the things, you know, to say about Andrew is that he, um, he made it very clear to everybody that that this was, um, this was not going to be a piece of cake, you know, it was going to be very serious and people should not actually, you know, stay with this unless unless they really felt committed, you know, to to the whole thing. And I think so he was always very upfront about that. So that needs to be said because that's important. And I think um you know from my experience at least for the first 10 years um uh I think the community at large was very much behind that. I mean we're and a lot happened in those 10 years. I mean so um you know the the men's and the women's meetings developed I mean I was became I was celibate for a period of about four four years I believe it was um which was an extremely powerful time for me I mean one of the things about Andrew that's important to say is that um he was a very unusual person in the sense that um you He he he um I think he was really learning as he went along. So he really started to understand okay so obviously this experience is not enough for people. So he started to develop his teaching and um he started to give people practices that they could do um which were specific to them. Um Andrew had a an extraordinary insight into um you know people. I mean he was very insightful understanding you know he had some sort of very keen understanding of of people's um issues or and so forth. Um and uh so uh and and again you know so for the these first 10 years I mean Andrew after I did this whole celibacy practice and you know which was extraordinary for me because another thing that Andrew was really interested in was the whole issue of sexuality and again I felt like this was awesome because you know so few people had actually had the idea of like people spending time without being involved in in sexuality at all so that they could actually really understand what's involved you know you know the whole desire and all of these things so I really appreciated that it was a very powerful time for me and it gave me a kind of independence which was um really amazing um so that was happening at the same time there was some very challenging times I mean right before I went into that practice Andrew again threw me out of his house and Um, and I didn't know exactly why he' thrown me out. So, I went through a very difficult period, but I came out through the other side of it and and Andrew put me on this intensive individual retreat which I did for a month and it was like amazing. Um, and um, so and then at the end of all that, Andrew sent me and two other people to London to start a center there. And that was um in the early um uh uh yeah it's probably 1990s basically. Um yeah and um so uh that was an extraordinary experience because um again it was this period where um the we were all being carried you know in spite of the challenges we were being carried by our own commitment um to do this by recognizing that this was s deeply serious that we had to actually find it in ourselves to live this teaching d um And so that was all there, but I think we were all being carried still by this uh by this incredibly positive energy force, you know, that we were really, you know, creating new ground, you know. So, so that was extraordinary. And then uh the experience in London was amazing. I mean, this this community developed sort of quite organically and in a in a very powerful way. And it was uh we had these amazing discussions um and um you know it was it was quite uh explosive and then other centers started to open around Europe as a result of that. This was all a fundamentally uh uh ex extremely positive. I think where where things started to change was when Andrew I mean yeah I would say I mean just to keep it simple there's so much one could talk about about all this yeah yeah but um I think to keep it simple I think things really started to change from my perspective when Andrew started to um for all kinds of different reasons um he he kind of um took out the the most senior level of the of in other words the people that had had the most experience who'd been around the longest different reasons he he basically challenged them and then cut them out of that so a lot of people were quite freaked out by this you know because they felt like you know what's going on you know we're leading we're losing the people that are helping and guiding us and Um so that to me was quite a turning point um actually um and um uh yes I think it created a lot of fear for people and a lot of people felt they didn't want to be too much in the limelight because they were afraid the same thing would happen to them and that was quite a significant um uh part of the development of how things went I think. Yeah, that makes sense to me. I I have a question though. Would you say that at that time when when this happened because Enu also told me about this time, would you say that there were cases where you could see yourself what was the reason why he uh threw somebody out or why somebody lost lost it? And therefore, there were good reasons to to uh to to separate or to to kind of I'm not saying he should have kicked anybody out, but but could you see why he did what he did or was it totally opaque for you and and you felt like no, this these are all good guys and why why would he send away? Yeah, Daniela, I think the thing is like so much about Andrew is it's very complex. Yeah. You know, because um I think sometimes and often Andrew had a some kind of insight into a particular individual which was pro sometimes very accurate and often was, but it was more to do with how he actually responded to those Yeah. insight that could also be really problematic because I think um he you know he and and sometimes it wasn't sometimes it actually worked you know sometimes he did things which for example when he put me on this retreat that I did when I was uh became celibate and all that um in reflection looking back on it it was it was like perfect you know so often I think his initial insights into things were good but how he responded to them particularly over time became uh uh more extreme and um and also less understandable. Um you know I mean you know even looking back now I can look at a lot of those things and uh he often didn't explain to people why he was doing things either. He'd just do them and then the person would spend sometimes years trying to understand why that had happened. I mean I I was one of those people and there were many of us actually. So so yes I think it's a you know it's it's one of those things that um became I think particularly after he dismantled the the more the more the students that had been more leaders in a in a leadership role. That was when I think particularly things started to get become more problematic. Partly for the reason I said that a lot of people felt afraid to to to to sort of rise up to that because afraid of what was going to happen if they did. And that became a real feature of the landscape. And I I I I do think that that was one of the things that Andrew that was a mistake from my perspective looking back that Andrew did that because I think he he he he seemed he he he didn't seem to um know how to work with people somehow. He you know he he kind of like had these very extreme responses and then left them to sort of sort it out in a way. Yeah. Very black and white. Yeah. So that was that was problematic and and um and sometimes you know really some terrible things happened I mean along the way there. Um you know and um and also it was very difficult if you were in a position of authority because Andrew put myself included and very a very you know a number of other people at different times quite a lot of people in positions of authority. Um and then you know often um I know for myself and many others we felt um very conflicted about some of the things Andrew asked us to do which were quite extreme in relationship to other people. Um because you know we were torn between our you know I I always you know felt all along my sense that I trusted Andrew at the deepest level and therefore I gave him always the benefit of the doubt but I did sometimes feel conflicted and and you know in terms of some of the things he asked me to do. So this was the this became a growing um issue. Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah I I I think from all my conversations I had with Andrew and I don't know if you know I was also working with Andrew on his last book when meets the body. Yeah. No I didn't. Yeah. So Hans and Andrew and I worked together on this. I was in all the meetings and so we had a lot of conversation about everything and there were two things that I wanted to share. One is that very much matches what you just explained. One of his insights was very clear through his his sabbatical but then also writing the book that he thought before the crash that he was always right that it that it always came from the right place in himself and that he was always right. like this idea that he was so connected to spirit, to to God, to whatever that he he always was right. And in his sabbatical and with all the grappling with what had happened, one of the biggest insight was that this was just not true. And that was a deep insight. And it kind of sounds ridiculous because we all are human beings that are not always right, but it was a real insight. I I could feel it in him that he he was shocked himself and and did see it and accepted it. And then in the book he described kind of these three different uh uh situations where he said like look I saw ego very clearly ego or or or or the or where people were stuck and I addressed it really one pointed and there was a breakthrough that was kind of bucket one as we called it in in the book or while writing the book and then there was a second situation where I still saw what was limiting the person, but the means that I used to make him or her see it were were just not adequate to the situation. I over pushed. I did too much pushing. I it it was the wrong tools that I used because I was not skillful in in finding the right tools or what you just said in working with people to actually approach these limitations in a way that actually could have helped the person and not have led to a breakdown or to a being thrown out of the community. And then he saw also the third part, the third bucket which w which he said I was just plain wrong. My intuition was not right. I was wrong and acted wrongly and I can see this now. And I I can just say I I know that he saw this very clearly in the last 10 years. And uh with everything he did with the new song and what we built up uh he was always very conscious of of these uh former mistakes and he did everything to not not repeat them and and to be much more cautious in even when he saw something when he saw limitations in how he approached them and how he how he tried to make people aware of what was actually happening. Yeah. Well, just to echo that, I think you know um for sure that um I mean this again comes back to you know the the the role of the guru and I think um for sure Andrew did have this sense that he was sort of infallible and um and I think it goes back to somehow he he had some sort of justification for it that he saw in his own kind of enlightenment that you know once the kind of this kind of enlightenment happens you know you on a personal level you're sort of done kind of thing I think in some kind of way he had that as a sort of backup to his belief in himself and of course Punji his teacher also told him to trust himself completely and unfortunately that that was Andrew kind of used that to justify a lot of things that um I mean to do some crazy you know stuff you know which um Uh I I think you know I I also do feel over time that his judgment got uh worse. You know I think I think he became as he became um you know his sort of belief in himself developed because you see at the beginning he was he was very innocent actually he didn't really there was a great deal of innocence and he I mean understandably he was just sort of thrown into this position. So, but as time went on and I think you know these kind of um the the the way he um uh the yeah he he made a lot of mistakes and and so that's basically but I think the bottom line was yeah just as you're saying there was this belief that he um that he was kind of infallible and I think you obviously there's a you know huge amount of dangers in that and particularly for somebody like Andrew who is a very complex character character who had on one hand he could be you know extraordinarily loving you know as a human being. I mean you know I mean you know really extraordinary and at the same time I mean he could also be at times incredibly cruel you know so you know and and really do things that were cruel. I mean cruel and had literally no positive aspect to them at all. you know, as far as my perception is concerned and a lot of things that wavered in the middle there as well. So, you know, um but I I agree with you. I think I think, you know, uh a lot of it boiled down to the fact that well, first of all, that Andrew had the sense of his own infallibility. And second of all, he really didn't seem to know himself very well. I mean, he didn't seem to have much self-nowledge of himself. He had a lot of knowledge of us, but his knowledge of us of himself a as I found out later, you know, as as as the as the whole community came to an end, I realized, you know, he he really um doesn't appear to know himself or understand his own condition as a human being, you know. So, that was quite this this this he had to catch up with and he did over the last 12 years. And I I agree with you. And interestingly enough, you might find it interesting that not only did he see that he was wrong in his infallibility, but he also his teaching changed in the way that you remember the times before the crash the teaching was always like you are either in ego or you are in authentic self. So you are either in ego or you are enlightened more or less. Yeah. Absolutely. that that was that was the teaching and uh that changed in the last years and I find this the most beautiful change and and so encouraging for everything that that we could uh take forward and what what the new teaching said was that we have to be very aware by the way that's also what what Wilbur and the Wilbur comes latis in the integral uh movement says we have to distinguish between enlighten Enlightenment itself doesn't come with a moral and ethical compass. Enlightenment is the opening and and the awakening of the awakened mind. And we have to make sure that this enlightenment is awakening falls on a welldeveloped positive ego. So he re-mbbraced the ego splitting it in two in the teaching in a positive and a negative ego. negative meaning all the victimizations and the arrogance and the the things that we actually want to leave to the side. And he stood up for developing a positive ego, real self-confidence in the best possible way because he he realized that if we want to seriously awaken, we need a vehicle including a positive ego, a positive good individuation that can actually carry that enlightenment forward. Otherwise, you just you just mess up. No, I think that's that that's what Andrew he really was not able to kind of guide people in a in a in a in in a way when people were challenged his guidance was very black and white generally. Yeah. So he didn't seem to have much understanding at that time over those years of how to go about that and that happened over and over again and a lot of people even sort of completely lost touch with their own desire for for freedom or their own connection to it. as a result of that. So that was really quite problematic. But just to say there's a couple of other things I wanted to mention which is that um just coming back to his teaching. I mean you see obviously I'm you know it's it's interesting to hear that that changed over time. I mean, I think uh because that aspect of his teaching was obviously quite crude and and didn't really have the all of the developmental needs of individuals in mind. But there were other aspects of his teaching that personally were the ones that I felt most moved by and most involved with which was this which came from this um combination between um what he used to call the ground of being you know which was this kind of state of being and evolution and how that developed into what he called enlightened communication. Um me that was um very profound and really um groundbreaking. Yeah. Um so I I I mean that's for me was one of the most you know brilliant and incredible um the things that Andrew developed as a teacher. Um, so, uh, I I just wanted to say that because, you know, I I do feel that's one of Andrew's greatest gifts was actually bringing that into being. And he brought it into being through us, but also because we we worked together to make that happen. and um and he knew that you know um I mean the only thing I will say is that he didn't participate in it himself which I think if he had have done it might have actually also had quite a transformative effect on him he he he we were the ones that really did it. He had the idea, we sort of put it into being if you like between us and that really developed something amazing in the community and it also gave people a a vehicle for how to work together to deal with our own issues in a context of something much larger. It really reinforced that in a way um that uh particularly for the women I think at a certain point uh really were able to develop that. this was right towards the end um of of the uh before everything fell apart. So to me that was a um was extraordinary that development and uh yeah so I'm very grateful for that. Yeah, for me too and uh for me that potential was even what what what uh brought me to Andrew. I I found that like this whole project of coming together beyond ego on the internet and that's how I found Andrew and how I connected to Andrew in 2008. But if if I may, I want to push back on one point you were making lightly. I hear many of uh former students say Andrew wasn't part of the intersubjective work and I understand why you are saying this because he wasn't part of the the formal intersubjective work but wouldn't you say what you described at the beginning when when you were truly connected to Andrew and interacted with him in that space in real not in a wholeon in a formal coming together that this was act I mean because that was my experience erience being with Andrew the last nine years and working with him so closely once I overcame my my own limitations and could really could really enter that field with him as he said to you now we are communicating that was the inter interubjective field no I I I'm with you that I I felt personally with him um you know and and and you know it would lead to you know all kinds of extraordinary discussions between us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, no question about that. Um Okay. So, uh and you know, it has to be said that Andrew in was very much the source of this um experience. It's just that in terms of its development and it was really um uh something that happened between the students really. Um yeah. Yeah. I mean and also where I would also agree is that it never developed the the capacity to hold the the more difficult discussions between Andrew and the senior students and and the the people that were there. You know, like ideally one would have thought if you have a a practice like this, you could enter that space together and actually talk about difficult questions. And there I'm I I agree with you and that that wasn't happening. No. And especially it became more and more important that it happened with Andrew because Yeah, exactly. because of all of these things that, you know, we've spoken about that were really problematic um you know and became more so as time went on and how much division there was between different groups of people and so forth, different different um students and their position in the in the community and so forth. I mean uh yeah I I think that um I mean first of all just to say I wasn't around for that period at the end um um I because Andrew had asked me to go to India so I was in India then but um but from everything well first of all just yeah there's a couple of things there one is that um I think you see for me the most I I even though I was in India because Andrew had kind of thrown me out and I was in India running our center in India. Um I never lost faith in Andrew. I mean I always felt he was my guru and right through the whole thing even though I went through some really difficult times as many of us did. Um I never doubted Andrew at a fundamental level and also I didn't know about a lot of the stuff that was going on towards the end because I was involved. Um, I think for me, um, I of course I heard a lot when I when I eventually saw Andrew and I I mean what happened after the whole thing fell apart is I went back to America and I met with I saw Andrew and met with him. Um, and I think for me what was um what really um was disillusioning for me at that point from my relationship with him to was to see that he he had no resources. he was lost, you know, he seemed completely lost and that was incredibly shocking, you know, and I think that that was the end of a period where Andrew rather I know this for a fact because I know from all the conversations I had with him because even when he came to India, he used to tell me about what was happening in America and so forth and he felt that his senior students were sort of betraying him essentially, you know. So rather than actually you know, finding a way to work together on the principles of the teaching, you know, um I think it basically became impossible because there were certain things that were were coming up that really needed to be talked about and it it seemed impossible for that to actually happen. And um so I think to me a lot of this stems from the fact that Andrew just did not understand himself very well. And because he he he um saw himself as the teacher, the guru, he never really was in a position or never felt himself in a position to um that there was something he needed to do. So he he tended to point the fault outside of himself um as a result of that. And I think that that that was really problematic. So he wasn't able to enter into the space that that he'd actually put put us all in. And you know the thing is that the reason this was disillusioning for me was because Andrew was such a tough teacher. He put us through so much and we you know we went through it with him because we had deep faith in him. So then when that happened for me that was very that was very disillusioning. I mean I it it didn't change my fundamental connection Andrew you know because of everything that he'd given me you know which I don't think which which will be which will never which will be there forever you know I I feel like that is still as alive as it ever was in in in a sense but I I think you know to see him in that way um sort of without resources was was really Um uh that that was um that was shocking you know um it really was and it was yeah um because of the kind of teacher he was you know he he was he was yeah I understand what you're saying teacher and we always the thing is we I respected Andrew's boldness I mean I I loved his boldness you know I felt like it was a you know I felt that was one of the great aspects of and that's why it's so complex because one of the great aspects of Andrew was that he was so bold that he he basically said, "Look, this is what you have to do if you want to really do this." And and and and I think we all accepted that. And and I think for a long time it was something that we all loved and appreciated about Andrew was so bold and he would you know um uh it was that spirit that of boldness that that was so attractive from the very beginning really as well. So yeah. So it's a it's it's a very complex picture. It's a it's such a complex picture and I think that's one of the one of the factors about Andrew himself uh is that complexity. Um certainly in you know obviously you've you've been with him over a period of time where obviously you know things had moved on. Um but in terms of the my life with him um as you know as his student um one of the most overwhelming things is the is the complexity of it and both things both sort of sides of that are completely true and that's the thing that I find you know is just something that needs to be understood and and understood in the right way. No I understand what you're saying. I find it also fascinating thinking back because you say that I met him when when he had moved on already but that's actually not true. My relationship the deep relationship I knew him before I met in 2008 you know I was a committed core student before the crash which was kind of the outer string like these people that still had a job and still had a life. Yes. Yes. But my deep relationship to Andrew as a guru and as a friend and as a intellectual and philosophical partner started exactly at that point that you just described where you guys all felt like he is not living up to his teaching and that's that's where where my relationship with him started and I can relate to what you are saying he was he was broken at that moment and that's also what he describes in his book and uh I decided to support him anyway. So I was in a totally different cycle and that's also part of the complexity. No. Sure. And uh you know what I still grapple with and I know you don't have the answer either but it it's something that that I never understood in all of this and that that moves a little bit Oops. a little bit away from Andrew and more also to the SA because what happened there at crash time was that that the senior students tried to convince Andrew that something had to change. Yeah. And then he finally after too much time he he himself felt he he waited far too long. That that was a deep insight he had later that he just was was not uh listening to to the people he should have listened to. But then he finally decided to go into a six-month sbatical, not knowing that this would be the end of everything. And what I never understood, Steve, and still don't is why at that point where Andrew actually did what everybody wanted him to do, stepping down and senior leadership could have run with the jewel that still was there, with the teaching that still were valid, with with everything that had been built. and why nobody was willing to to take the torch and and and and do all the changes in enlighten that that everybody said would need to happen because there was a free free field then where one could have evolved enlighten instead of tearing it totally down. No, it's a really interesting question. It's a really interesting question. I mean I my feeling about that is that um it's comp again it's complicated. I mean I think that you see um I think part of the this it's a complex issue. I think I think one thing was that some of the I mean again I wasn't around for happening at that time but um my understanding is that that um that first of all um I think Andrew somehow was not really able to allow some of his most senior students at that point to really find their own way in a in a kind of um uh uh let's say to develop the whole thing wi-i which wasn't dependent on him right everything he kept everything you know very much around him yeah yeah yeah I understand but when he stepped down okay they could have when he okay so when he but when he stepped down the result of that was that I think a number of those senior people from my understanding of it felt They just they just had had enough. They wanted to get out. They wanted to develop their own selves. Not not that they just wanted to leave the teaching behind, but they wanted to to develop it in their own their own thing. Yeah. So I think that was the result of it. So that's one aspect of it. The other aspect of it to me is the is the sense of that I think is really important is the sense of disillusion that everyone felt in one I mean because this you know was uh he Andrew was our guru you know so to see him fall in that kind of way was um you know I think that the the fallout from that was so big just because you know well what does this all mean you know what does this all mean if our guru who is not actually when he's really deeply challenged able to live his own teaching um was extremely disillusioning for for for like whole segments of the community including the most senior people um you know I I don't think anybody felt I think it also brought up a lot of questions about the teaching itself aspects of the teaching itself um that's partly why for some people wanted to go off and develop it in their own particular way. They also felt in a way the creative dimension of working with Andrew, you know, had come to an end. And yet and yet and some people did try to start, but they didn't do it. They they they I think they felt they had to do it in their own way rather continue it as sort of evolutionary enlightenment as it were. Um uh so but you see in a way what I see I to me I felt like my way of looking at it was that the universe actually stepped in actually and said okay this is it we this has gone as far as it can under this circumstance it has to all break apart. I actually even though it was felt incredibly uh you know I mean it was huge at the time and and and deeply you know there was so much that needed to be reflected upon but somehow it it it had to happen because all the forces that were making the whole thing work broke down and I and I and I I think I think so somehow it was sort of inevitable that that was going to happen. Um, and at the other part of it is that when Andrew did go on sbatical, um, I mean, I know this because, you know, myself and a couple of other people, you know, um, were with Andrew over a long period trying to get him to to begin to sort of understand himself where some of these issues had come from. But it was like it it basically didn't go anywhere because I think main thing for Andrew was what he'd lost. He was so focused on what he'd lost and I think that was so he never really got past that at least in that period that period not in that period he did get past that but but probably much later and in a different way in a different in a different way. So, so you know, uh, but I think in terms of this whole evolution of the community, I think to me it was like it had to happen really because all the forces that made it what it was were no longer there and um uh and there were and there were some deep problems with the whole thing that that uh the structures if you like um created that were really problematic you know. So yeah I I agree. Yeah, there was a lot of uh rigidity also in the structure all the way up and down. Yeah. So Daniela, I just feel like there's so much more that we needs to be explored about all of this because it's a huge picture and I I I do feel one of the things I feel really important in in all of this in spite of its complexity because part of the our modern mind is to latch on to, you know, one side of things or the other side of things and and see that as reality. And I think um I think it's incredibly important um I think that that you know the the whole um an understanding uh of a lot of different aspects of this including the relationship with the guru what it means what it is um Andrew himself the complexity of of him you know and the the the you know um and also what he's what he brought you know so I mean in because obviously ly in the sort of popular world, people latch on to the the you know the the negative stuff first of all and what gets lost in that is what Andrew brought to the world. Yeah. Exactly. which is like which is like to me is like you know um mustn't be lost sight of because you know I think it was rare really rare and extraordinary you know so I I think we but at the same time we need we have to deal with the complexity of it so that's just the nature of the whole thing yeah yeah no I agree what what I would like more people to know also continuing on your thought is that the crash was 12 years ago and in this 12 years the world didn't stop and Andrew's world didn't stop and as as small as we were like the new community that that built itself around Andrew. I do think there was there was significant progress and and learnings from from the mistakes and an evolution in in the teaching in the student teacher relationship in how we related to each other, how we treated each other and I I wish that this is for me one reason that I I want to do this conversations because that's for me something I feel the former community has frozen Andrew some in time a little bit, you know, like 2013 that was the end and that is how Andrew was and I wish that more people would also learn about Andrew the Andrew of the last 12 years, how how he had changed, how he was still the same in many aspects too and a lot of the aspects that we all loved. And he was still a very complex character obviously that that's just who who he was. And his teachings evolved and his when he had people here in satsang right next door. We often felt like and he sometimes said this is like it was at the beginning. People were sitting there and were just falling into into his transmission. people here from TU that just came for a satsang or two or for a season of Southtown and it was all still there but it was refined and he was refined in in how he could teach and how he treated people and how the relationship to students evolved and that's just something that is very dear to my heart to convey that it hasn't stopped in 2013 and uh obviously I feel like he died too early because it it could have not only grown. We we we were not really into growth so much anymore. It was more like there was so much to give still and uh yeah, I totally understand you feeling that way. I that makes complete sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I miss him every day. Of course. Of course you do. Yeah. Of course you do. Yeah. No. And it was it was an incredible shock. His death was an incredible shock. And um you know I I'm sorry he's still not here. you know, I just feel like, as you say, we don't know also what what would have happened, you know, over time. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, and I I know of of quite a few people, more people since he has died that said they were thinking about coming here, reconnecting to him, wanting to see him. Yeah. And uh Exactly. That that makes me sad and happy at the same time because he would he would have loved that. And you you know he he literally had very open arms for people who wanted to reconnect. There was there was a part of him that was always able to just be open and and uh and connect in the depths of our being where where the conflicts anyway didn't happen and and all the mistakes didn't happen. And that part was still there and and ready to to connect to people. Yes. I mean I also want to say that I do feel that with Andrew's passing that um the significance of Andrew in people's lives in a lot of people's lives is starting to really emerge. So that I I feel, you know, um I've I've seen that and I've talked to quite a lot of people and I I definitely see that that is happening. Um and um so that's just the other side of what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. That is really happening. That's beautiful. and what what that will lead to it will be you know I feel is going to be very positive you know the boundary's legacy you know and what what it means we well let's see how that develops yeah yeah no I can feel it myself with with many interactions that I'm having there there seems to be a possibility now of a closure and of a reconnection to the positives and and the transformational effects and we had on so many people that wasn't there when he was still alive. And that's that's beautiful. And it's also for me who was so close to him at the at the end, it's also sad to see because he would have loved it. Of course. Of course. Yeah. I totally understand that. Yeah. Do you have anything else you would want to bring in here? We I think we went for an hour and something which is probably a good time to wrap up. Yes. I think we could go for a long time. I know. No, I mean I mean also also particularly because I uh I haven't spent very much time with you and I I'm sure there's so much you I mean there is so much every day I'm having long conversations about all of this and and I feel like it's it's an endless um exploration, you know. Um, yeah. And, uh, yeah. I mean, I think I think what I I I think I the only thing I want to say is that I feel like Andrew I feel my own connection to Andrew, my own relationship is still alive even though he's not here. And I feel everything that that means not just on a personal level but but but also in terms of um how I feel myself and other people are are carrying that and developing things out of that in the world in different ways. Um I I I feel so to me the whole thing is very it's just the human dimension of it that Andrew is not here, you know, which is which is very painful and um and shocking. Um but I feel like everything that he brought to the world will continue and is going to continue lot of people and that I feel is um you know I feel that you know I'm I'm I'm really curious to see how that develops over time. You know I feel good about that. Yeah, me too. I'm very curious. I'm yeah I'm also personal and very curious where where it will take me because I'm probably in a special situation that I I was literally on a daily basis in interaction with him. So the hole where there was Andrew is very big for me and while I agree with everything that you are saying it's it's all there and and it will spread and it it can it can widen and and deepen and evolve and uh for myself I I will have to find out what where that leads me in in my next phase of my life. Yeah. Well, I hope we'll be able to, you know, stay in touch about that and, you know, Yeah. you know, and also, you know, it would be great to be able to spend more time with you a lot, you know. Yeah. I think that would be wonderful. So, thank you so much