Faheem Nusrat: Conversations from the Heart - Honouring Andrew Cohen through our Stories

Welcome to conversations from the heart honoring Andrew Cohen through our stories. My name is Daniela Bomater. I was a student of Andrews for 17 years and for the past nine years I had the privilege of living and working alongside him. This service is a tribute to his life, his teaching, and the evolutionary fire he sparked in so many of us. Through these intimate conversations, we remember not only the man, but the depths of transformation he catalyzed in our lives. May these stories keep his legacy alive, honoring the sacred thread that connects us and allowing his voice to continue resonating through ours. [Music] So welcome for him to this conversations from the heart. And while we were sitting quietly for a few minutes before I started the recording, I just realized that it's exactly four weeks since pulsing. And I'm not even sure if I would say only four weeks or already four weeks. just it's still so unreal in a way and uh I'm very happy to have these conversations with many different people who have known Andrew and uh yeah had had their experiences with him and can tell stories and I'm very much looking forward to have this conversation with you and The way I like to start is just to ask you how did you meet Andrew and and what happened then? How how did you get uh yeah inspired by him or or kind of yeah gave a lot of years of your life uh to the time with him and his sa how did I meet him? Ah, well that I mean it's it's one of those things with um I was I just want to say I was reflecting on on of course this um to do this um video recording and I was very aware that I it's one of those things I never thought I'd be doing. So, and I was I already felt a bit I wanted to represent something about what it all meant, but I don't really have a conclusion. So, I was just aware that it I was I was it was it was it's a strange thing to be doing this. I've just me personally and yeah and yeah it's it's uh yeah it's an important thing to do I feel so hopefully I'll do justice to something but uh how I met Andrew I was 18 um or just coming up shy of 19 actually and um a my one of my dearest and oldest friends he had actually you know he who's a bit more he was older than he is older than me rather and he um he'd come across Andrew and he was he he'd been on some kabuts and he was doing some different different kinds of explorations and we were reading Satra and you know so there was you know in your late teens you know there's all that exploration going on for some people and we were in that sort of you know inquiring and thing and um and then I met my friend and I think I just started university or was going to university or something like that. And um and he um he just was very light. There was something lit up about how he was and it wasn't anything I could really put my finger on. And he just said, "Oh, I've I've met this person that I think you'd be interested in in finding out what they got to say." And he very lightly just just kind of said, you know, come if you if you're free, you know, and see see what you make of it. I you know and and that was kind of it. Nothing no more context and and um you know at that time I was reading Christian Merty to some degree and a few other things like that. So um and and I I think this happened before. Yeah. Anyway, so then I came across I think there was a teaching happening in London where I live in London and um and it was in um I don't know Houston or somewhere Quaker's meeting house or something like that and you know I walked into this scene. So my background is I grew up as a Muslim and quite a conservative you know not a um orthodox but quite you know just run-of-the-mill conserv family not really a particularly interested in anything um you know even though we were read doing some readings but that was just part of the kind of like the scene as it were that we we're into. Yeah. But not really looking for any particular spiritual path teacher. didn't even know what the concept of teacher was or path was you know we all know and those kind of things but that was kind of where we were at and I went along and you know very about 200 people sitting in there on you know little cushions which was a new thing for me and you know and then this uh and then it gets very quiet and there's a lot of intensity and a focus and all all of those things and I'm 18 um you know and it's predom what year was that for him just to put it in in the context of Andrew's overall teaching. Yeah. So it was five years after Andrew started teaching. So it was 91. Okay. 91 91. Yeah. The summer of 91 I believe. I think it was. Yeah. That's And um Yeah, exactly. So then he it was just a very wild experience because I didn't really know what was going on. I was sitting there and and the the two things happened, I guess. one was even though I couldn't understand conceptually what he was talking about, what he was responding to and all these different people and the questions, it was like an open form Q&A sort of thing, not necessarily how some of the later days there'd be, you know, very long dialogues and, you know, um, topic based discussions, that kind of thing. So, this was pretty free form, old school, what now I understood to be satang, you know. Yeah. And, um, yeah. So there was there was all of this stuff going on and but I could feel that he was very sincere and was there was this ring of kind of vibration about what was going on in the room. I just felt like this is really there's something going on here which is very powerful was one thing but really true you know whatever that word meant it just had this ring about all of it and it kind of made deep sense to me even though it sounds very counterintuitive if you don't really have a framework to understand this stuff and yet something profoundly makes sense so that was really my first you know and I'm sitting like twothirds of the way back and all the people are very nice and you know very I have to say middle class upper class, you know, very mono monoculture, monochrome. There was not much diversity going on in that room from what I remember. So, there's me um you know, kind of connecting with this guy in this waste coat sitting on this podium. Um and you know, just what he it wasn't really Andrew at the mo that moment. It was just what was going on for me that really I couldn't really relate to him as a as anything. I because I had no frame of reference to be honest. There was something I felt whatever's going on there's something really you know important here. That was if I if I'm honest that what came away. Then two or three days later I was staying with my friend and um and I remember just waking up in the middle or going to bed and having a very profound you know it's like right now it's like 30 plus 35 years later and it's like it happened yesterday this very clear seeing of the only way I can put it is non-duality where where where that relative in the absolute perfectly are one thing and it was it was a very strange thing it was um uh seeing that there was no difference between what was on the outside of the window I was looking at and what was on the inside of the window I was looking at. I mean it sounds absurdly simple but it somehow really resonated with me and it was a very um powerful seeing of something you know so that you know that happened and I still remember it was just this moment where there's before that moment and after that moment and you know and then as like you know as I've learned lots of things you know some people in in Zen Buddhism and some you know they call it the base and you know there's actual recognition of something so so that happened within days of of meeting him for the first time and I didn't really speak to him. I mean, I may have asked a question and he I think he pretty much said why are you asking that question or something and you know and I'm like this 18year-old pretty shy character and I you know and I didn't really you know I thought I should probably ask something but I don't really you know it was probably a mixture of naivity and and just literally not having a framework of questions but I didn't many questions because there was some something direct going on. Yeah. So that's kind of how I met him completely um not expecting it and it's something really um struck a chord and then how did it continue? Did you did you get closer quickly or did you follow him for a while or what was happening then? Yeah, 90 91. So then I was I was I was studying at uni and um you know some very beautiful people around Andrew at the time and you know there you know and there was there was there was a whole bunch of other young men as it were um floating around at that time actually one or two um and you know we connected a little bit but it and and became very intimate very quickly in in the sense of just it wasn't a personal kind of you're my best friend. It was just like we were in something together. So you as young, you know, young people, whether it's men or women, I don't know, but it was just like, oh, I can trust this friend of mine that I've discovered or a couple of friends that you could just meet in meet and um be interested together. That was really what was me and but I went back up to uni. I was studying in the north of the UK and um at that time there was and you know it has to be said there was so Andrew had been teaching since 1986. So this was five or six years in, right? So five years. And so there was it was the beginning of sort of I what I now look back and go phase two of and some of Andrew's work. Yeah. Yeah. I can't really speak to the phase one, but I you know, they were kind of mythical people that we'd hear about um you know, and I got to meet some of them and all the rest of it. there genu genuinely it was there was something lit up about people that was really what it was just a very nice sort of like uh in in the in the context of the UK back then you know it's the '9s it was just all about materialism and you know we were all getting over our kind of angst of the cold war ending and all all of this stuff you know so you know I'd been to Germany a few years earlier when the war came down so there was a time where things were kind of on the one hand you know things were changing but on the other hand it was it was very material so it was just like okay young yeah not really anything like this going on I felt you know um that I could relate to this this was happening in its own other sphere so I at that time so they would have these things where it wasn't really a there was a community of sorts and there was people that were quite you know formally engaged with Andrew students I didn't do that and um I I tell you why in a second, but I um I traveled down and this is just one of those moments of the power of that really got me. Um yeah, there was something happening. That's all I can say is that we they have these discussion groups. So um what a discussion group was there'd be a book or a teaching or a little excerpt. I mean sometimes a paragraph of about you know 10 sentences and um we they would gather once a week in Primos Hill and have these things called discussion groups which is really to understand some of the work that Andrew was doing some of his quotes some of his teachings and so but it wasn't really about for me there was something so magical about a bunch of people honestly in because I was studying at university right and there was no real passion about anything really you were just doing things you were kind of like going through the course of you know getting through your degree and there was nothing wasn't that interesting actually compared to this so we were sitting there and we'd come down so I would arrive get on a bus at I don't know 2:00 in the afternoon arrive in London because I was a student didn't have much money I'd arrive in London in probably a very cubous area you know Primrose Hill uh walk into a very nice house that they'd hired or rented And we'd do two hours of very intense discussion around aspect of what it what it meant to you know different topics would come up based on whatever was you know the the quote as they were but really go into it but for two hours so you know you can imagine like five or six people in a very earnest way trying to understand something and and have a direct like Christian Murd you know direct experience of something of of the meaning of in and it was it was very powerful and I still remember those things as being really formative in my kind of appreciation of what why I would be even interested in this because it was just inherently really um interesting. wasn't really much kind of direction from Andrew apart from let's just learn about some of these um you know what what later became teachings but these things that you know so that and then I'd go back at two in the morning back up to pre you know the north. Wow. Yeah. So, and that would be my I literally spent a year doing this because and I I remember you know my recollection of those early years at my university was basically that's what was happening. The university degree going on but this was actually the most exciting thing. So everything kind of was in two there was there was kind of like um a dual life I was living because I no one else I I knew could relate to anything I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm curious about something for him that when you were talking about these discussion groups because this is before the so-called intersubjective breakthrough in Oh yeah. This was 1991. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I understand that. But the way you are describing it and and you had later experiences with the interubjective work too. No. What was it already going in that direction that people came together kind of because the way you describe it so beautifully, it sounds like people already shared a a a space of of uh Yeah. No, of course it was it was probably some form of that. I I think you have the the at the time I think there was a very real energetic freshness to to so many aspects of what what was happening around and even with Andrew I think you know from all I can understand at the time um you know so people were having very you know we we were we were all lifted into something of course but it was a focus so you know as I've later learned in many years there's many different forms of meditation there's different practices that you do for different states of mind. All of these things. Yeah. Yeah. In that sense, this was is all about focus. Okay. So, and really uh training the mind to discern. It was all about trying to figure out how to um you know really be in a conversation about something and um and and do your utmost to to not bring a lot of preconceptions to the moment and and all of this. So really important training actually which is valuable in any walk of life but yeah yeah yeah exactly pretty focused and um yeah so whether it was it was similar in some sense because it really had it's had such a profound impact on me anyway because you just realized this things can become alive in the moment that was the thing life really be pregnant with something very um you know out of grasp but very significant you know you can really experience that in life which is quite an good thing to know about you know that that kind of thing exists. So um yeah so what else did you say? No, no. I I I just I pick up from your description of what was happening there that that it feels to me it sounds to me that this was a a precursor to the the later uh in the subjective non-duality work that was consciously practiced then because all the qualities that you are describing are the qualities that that one would describe in in the subjective dialogue. Well, yeah, I yeah I think that's true. But I also another thing at the time there was there was this particular and it's it's a great one to remember because we are talking about the impact that Andrew had in some of his work and then obviously the community and then there's also the his kind of interpretation of the dharma as well there. So there's you know there's that triple jewel the gem aspect but I think um at that time Andrew was very much exploring this whole concept of you know he'd seen you know he's written about it all as well you know he'd saw that and you know this this did kind of come to pass in some ways and it's still unfolding I think but you know that what was happening between different people around him was actually probably more significant than what happened between him and what he gave to people and I I think there was this amazing um well I don't know amazing it was just kind of one of those ones with this like a depth charge of a teaching where you feel that um you know cuz the way Andrew taught and I think this is something that I've heard you know which is a kind of like a hallmark of someone that's got access to you know for one of a better word enlightened awareness and perspective is you know spontaneously being able to um you have access to some kind of source of wisdom, you know, which is yeah, very dynamic and but he he himself there's this one particular teaching and he was called out of the swamp and some remember this but it it was just this moment where he was kind of reaching into the furthest kind of you know his his conceptually kind of like breaking new ground and I and I don't know whether he did or didn't you know the jury's out on on so many things we don't really can't really answer what what it all means yet. But I do think that in that in in that that kind of posture that he had in those days was really quite meaningful because it was uh it it felt like um you know there was something being discovered whether it whether it was brand new and a contribution to the the great you know discourse of dharma I you know we'll find out but I think it it it was in his own experience and our own experience something that really felt you were reaching for so that was happening at the same time as these discussions. So there was this like so I guess it was you know maybe you know and and that that whole particular thing that he was seeing was well you know whatever happens between people is very much more significant than just the the awakening or the liberation of of an individual. That was kind of like where it all was the fulcrum point because I think before being a different kind of emphasis and I think because um you know there was probably a rawness to what was going on people were just like you know and this was one thing I was thinking about because a lot of the people that I came into contact with there was you know there's maybe about 50 people that that were kind of around the scene or maybe you know in London at that time maybe remember but um but a lot of those folks had been around for many years on the spiritual quote unquote path and seriously I mean really beautiful individuals and that that to me you know it there was a lightness about just being around those kinds of characters but also you know later years you know people talked about you know you know and I've questioned a lot you know about our journey and everything but um what was it that for them because I knew for me it was like it was going from no context to suddenly having some very profound experience out of the blue. So for me it was the contrast was enormous. I was like something is happening here and something's happened in relationship to what Andrew is doing and with the people around him. So it was very obvious to me that it was something really um you know to be explored and really uh followed you know and it wasn't necessarily I I wanted to follow a teacher. It really it really wasn't that it was it it happened you know and then you're like well I you know why I'd be foolish not to follow this you know because this is what's bringing some life into my you know up until then pretty conservative upbringing you know so um those people those people definitely were have said you know that something stopped you know the searching stopped when they met him. Yeah. So I think that for me that you know um was quite significant because for me it began and for other people it so you know I think so many people different experiences of that moment or those meetings you know. Oh, that's interesting because I think that was something that Andrew always felt was very important to see that at one point we have to acknowledge that the search stops and then we can actually become an expression of what we have found and we can identify as a finder and and bring that into the world. We we kind of start to not focus on ourselves but look outward in into what what can we bring into the world now with this with this knowledge about the reality of of existence or and also with this purpose to to bring this to more people or to bring this into the world. Yeah, for me this was always one of the most important uh parts of Andrew's teaching that in the end it's never for yourself. It's it's for the sake of the whole. It's for right bringing the light into the world. Yeah. I mean I Yeah. And you know I you know I've basically known Andrew all my life. So you know my adult life. So it's I definitely I I think that's true reflection of Andrew. he really was, you know, to a fault. I guess even, you know, you might say that was what he drove him and um um you know, and and and then and in that kind of focus also was had its impact on on many areas of um himself and his life and those of us around him in some ways, right? in many ways and you know that's a whole other discussion as well but I think um what I would say is that I you know this whole thing of bringing the light I in the end I mean I I I kind of go back to basics with a lot of my life around Andrew. I really do because in the end, you know, you if you one of one of those early days moments was, you know, if you see it was all about what they they used to call discrimination and seeing clearly, which is just a you know, it's a thing in all traditions. Um but, you know, there was a particular way in which um how do I put it? I I felt um that is what was what was it was all about the inquiry a living inquiry I think and and out of that of course there's going to be the outcome of that you know and you can't you know there's the outcome of that and the impact that having a different perspective has on you as a and I I felt I really feel that Andrew when Andrew would talk about those things and this is just my how I've inter internalized over the years it isn't because I'm I've become much more aware of how the mind will take you know and this is classic student teacher stuff right that the the this the teacher in you know all these you know myriad ways will say something and and the student will take it a completely different way until they realize being said in the first place and it wasn't what they thought they were said and that's the whole teaching yeah yeah it's ongoing and the classic stories that kind of inspire kids and adults through the ages are all about that. So it's it's not a it's not a bang you meet a teacher and everything becomes clear. It actually gets more and more confusing. No no not at all. Exactly. Deal with this this kind of reality of the of your own mind of of of what is the you know and decipher all of this stuff. And you know after I met him I took five years before I even considered becoming formally involved with Andrew as a teacher. with this profound thing had already happened. I didn't really feel I felt I needed to finish my studies and I felt I needed to to kind of just find out what this was all about first and you know and I was reading books by you know Irene Tweety the Chasm of Fire and um stuff like that which basically spelt out this kind of ordeal that you were going to you know enter into if you were going to engage with some kind of you know even if you know and Andrew was known at that time for being pretty ferocious. I remember thinking about that and going, "Wow, I guess so." You know, I can see it. Um, but I never really experienced that firsthand with him. I mean, in later years, Andrew was, you know, I I actually knew him as a person and he knew me, right? But in those early years, I didn't really have any any there wasn't really much in my Yeah. Yeah. in me that was really I needed to qu you know, maybe a blank slate to some degree, but you know, and and naively so, right? So that it was just like or more about the excitement or and not even excitement. I a lot of it was just trying to figure out what was going on, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I really remember those days being lit up by something but going what is going on? Yeah. This is so different. It's interesting. Yeah. Um so yeah. So um yeah, so it took me five years. That's the thing. And I and I think that for me I really really was like trying to observe myself looking at what it was that I'd be getting into, what I'd be giving out, what I'd be losing connection to because the where I you know in my the family that I grew up in this was really a no no when you if you if you leave I never really felt I left something but I entered into a different kind of spiritual path. So that's a big deal, right? And basically say you're gonna you're likely to you know um have a you know a lot of um downstream effects of that kind of decision. So you know I you know in many way you know I didn't do a lot of things that maybe younger you know men in their 20s were up to. Um, I did my fair share of things, but I'm I'm just saying there was a certain kind of renunciation and then that extended to maybe how you thought about your career, how you thought about your family. So all of those things I was considering for five years. I for me it was it was like well, you know, do I really want to do anything like this? Get involved with a with a teacher because it I felt that it meant the renunciate path, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And uh Andrew wouldn't have contradicted you. He would he would have said, "Yeah, that's that's what it means." Because in his teaching, it was always about putting spirit first and putting putting spirituality first and everything else came second and third. So there were a lot of good reasons to think long about what how closely you want to be engaged with him. No. Yeah. And and I remember one boat trip we went we went we were we had this we'd celebrate this um day the the Guru Puruma day with him and it was this beautiful it was we were on the river dart and um and we you know one of those moments where you just like look back and go what were you doing but um I remember I really I had some burning question I suddenly had come up with right and um and I remember going up to him and saying, "Andrew," and he looked at me and he said, "Look, I'm on holiday today." And it was just these moments where you just felt like, you know, the overzealousness and seriousness that which you we kind of took ourselves in certain ways. He he wasn't he wasn't tuned into that whole thing. And I and this is just something that I I my reflection about Andrew is I really feel Andrew was a prof he profoundly was, you know, want of another word, a mystic. He really did live and breathe in this other dimension. I I mean know because you know of course he he spoke of teachings and we created structures around him and and there was some real you know over time you know that you know they needed to be changed and all of those things right for sure and you know people had to deal with the consequences of us you know getting things wrong and him including him but I think he really lived in another you know dimension and saw things and obviously acted in in this world and um and even you know perhaps you know got too entangled in in wanting the his teaching to to grow and really have this huge effect that he really felt the importance of it was you know but at the same time he really was rooted in this other place and that is the thing about really is a mystic and um and and because all sorts of manner of and I'm not talking about kind of like superstitious things would happen but very profound things would just have this have this kind of ongoing. They would happen around Andrew and people. Yeah. Yeah. Again and again and we're just talking about simple things like suddenly some recognition of something or someone you know for me you know his understanding of you know my background and who I was and and the things that I I needed to you know consider to to kind of like really um progress you know quote unquote and and develop as a human being. He he kind of like pointed those things out in a in sometimes very subtle ways in which you it took years to actually really get. And I think this the other side of Andrew that I think um seems to you know it it's easy for it to be missed because you know you know I obviously live that life for so many years. So it was just it's it's but it's a story that gets missed sometimes is how much you know Andrew had a lot of impatience around certain things but he had enormous endless in other in other dimensions and I think that's something that is really quite profound because you know I often think about this because I've you know my career my professional careers you know I've been around leaders and CEOs and all of this wonderful stuff you know and you know and you you see a lot of what happens around leaders, you know, and how things can occur. So I think with Andrew, he he really had a patience which I think comes from some other connection to something to deal with the complexity of the human condition. I mean, you know, you know, and and by the end of his life, of course, I think he it kind of came full circles where he understood the complexity of his own condition much more as well, but he really um had this ability because there was so many of us that he was dealing with and and there was enormous patience in that. And I I don't know, it's just something that I realized isn't I I never hear people talk about, you know, so I wanted to say that about him because Mhm. And I he really, you know, at times would would would just exercise enormous, you know, just there was a lot of grace coming out of him in many ways, which is very unless you're kind of dealing with your own humanity in relationship to a teacher, that's that's enormous in the first place for anyone to do that, right? And then and then you have a teacher that actually and he'd often say this, you know, I I take you far more seriously than yourself, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was true. Well, I think Yeah. I mean, again, to a fault at times, but it was it was like, you know, and then he'd but I, you know, I would say for the first 10 years of knowing him, it was all about learning what is this thing for me? What is going on? What is all of this? And then after that I you know and then had there was a few years of real intense inquiry and and really being asked to um to kind of be true to what you'd had experienced and and have that quality about him and and if you didn't really want to do that I think um in the end it was yourself that you were faced with and Andrew had this he was in that sense giving that reflection this guru like teacher like reflection. It wasn't necessarily so conscious. I think at times it was conscious and he was really working things through and trying to really make some something happen as he might say it or and other times I think he was just intuitively kind of feeling where someone's at. I think he and he did have this ability to to really know something, you know, about what it would mean for you to to kind of like, you know, embrace more of your own humanity or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I like whatever your edge was. Exactly. Yeah. And I I barely felt that. Yeah. And particularly seeing him in, you know, was it two months ago? Yeah. I mean I really felt that that was more true than other times. I really felt that he you know he embraced more and more that that is the you know yeah the delicacy of it all. So you know Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And one thing is what you pointed out is that that he could see very clearly where our edge was and pointed it out patiently for a long time. And I always felt like he got impatient when he felt like this is now a conscious uh not accepting of one's edge and not an unconscious anymore because he pointed out a lot of unconscious stuff to us. Yeah. And as long as he felt like, okay, he or she just hasn't seen yet. He just hasn't seen yet. I have to point it out again and again. But then sometimes there was this point where he felt like no no now she actually knows. I mean that that was true for myself and now it's active resistance and that's how I saw where he lost patience. Well, I mean, you know, sometimes rightly and wrongly. I mean, I this is where I feel like um there was I even I I think he was so he was to some I mean he was very intuitively connected to to some kind of knowing. I know that for sure. And whether he c and I think he had later admitted, you know, there sometimes he got it right, sometimes he got it mostly right, sometimes he got it before in his book and that was his own, you know, his own humanity at work there. But I think I think that was one of the um because I never really I res I didn't really resist consciously in the way that I've I think about it. If I look back now we're looking back now and like thinking of those moments and he never uh for me personally I I don't really think he kind of really ever pin you know he pointed at generic things about culture and and and men and all the rest of it and women or whatever those things were. And I think there was some truth to a lot of that. And I think um but I this is just probably just my own kind of rumination on it. I think that even he didn't know quite quite a lot more of the time than it appeared to him because I spoke to him years later and said, "What what about this thing, Andrew? What about what was going on there?" And he'd go, "I don't know." You know, and um and I think he actually meant it. There was moments where he was, you know, tuned into something where he didn't really didn't have the answer, but he felt there was a direction. And I felt that he always responded to a directionality or a a deepening or whatever. what I don't think sometimes it was that but that was I think also his nature was this you know just to just to keep on turning over that stone you know to really get to go and and I don't think it was necessarily just all about evolution as he would call it or we'd call it now or development I think was just this there was there's some nature to always inquiring where but that would take an embodied thing because we're all part of the as we you know those early days we we we'd say we're all part of this big experiment. So that was the big caveat could go wrong, you know, and um you know, so there was you were aware that there was that living kind of inquiry going on and you were part of you were a subject of that, right? and he was part of the inquir at times and other times it was our brother and sisters and other times it was yourself you know but he created I think what I want to say he really created this you know because we're talking about the impact of him as a teacher and you know that you know and there's there's a big story to be told here but part of it is definitely he there was this living breathing kind of inquiry going on and and some of it became too intensely focused maybe on our faults for sure at times and then the big liberation came is when you realized actually you had to own your own inquiry and it wasn't really about so much the collective and then that would impact the collective so there was very you know there were there were moments where you know I think you know the the changing of how Andrew's community functioned were quite there were there were like maybe four I don't know how you'd see But three or four at least four phases, right? Yeah. I probably can talk about the loss too like the the face arrived before the crash, the years when I was there already and then I can say a lot about the last phase obviously where a lot happened in in Andrew and his own development and you talked a lot about his uh his teaching of of seeing clearly and and something that that really changed in him I felt over the last 10 years since he uh came back and and taught again was that he was much more aware that seeing clearly is not possible anyway. Not in this relative world. Not in you you can he often said you can have an experience of perfection when you are connected to the absolute but in the relative in the manifest you you can never achieve perfection. And that was true for for manifesting but also for seeing clearly like his first his third tenant face everything and the void nothing. He was much more conscious that this is never going to fully happen. We are not capable not even with the help of the guru. The guru cannot see that clearly. The student cannot see that clearly. And I felt that was one of the biggest shift that he became much more you could call it humble but it was I think it was a deep insight in into the fact that it's just not possible that we can see it clearly but we can lean into seeing more and seeing more clear and and and expand our understanding. No. Well, that's why I always felt like when you were saying earlier about, you know, he could see where you your edge. I don't think he that's why I was saying I don't think he did see that. I don't think he could see that. It was just this sense of of things. And he responded very well to that intuition. And other times when it when it became when when you crystallized into, oh, this is the thing that needs to change. I think that was well actually we're a process much more than a entity anyway. So, how could it ever thing, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so I I I and I think the the the beautiful thing around, you know, and it was beautiful was around Andrew was was the community uh of people and it wasn't just a sense of this fixed community around him. This was the thing. And I think again maybe even despite his own, you know, some of the some of the some of the way Andrew was, despite this, he was still pushing towards wanting this very this kind of sort of semi out of control unfolding of the community, you know, in his I don't know if that's a good description, but a really living breathing, you know, sanger of community. I think he really wanted that. And yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but and I think to some degree we succeeded and then other areas we really failed you know and I think that was because of him you know he was the he catalyzed so much of that in so many people and and you know we would meet people that had you know there was the manifestation in in this magazine and the magazine was you know that was powerful because of the perspective um and you know you know like if you read Shurabindo's journals and and stuff like that you know there's some really cool stuff but but there wasn't a you know it was doing he was you know there's a whole complexity around the the magazine and everything as you well know but I mean it had an effect which was get getting people to really think about the possibility that other ways of seeing and other perspectives and it was very it was very earnest and honest inquiry right so that was another catalyst that he really I think he really that was a contribution that is you know it really will stand up um totally and I can't really pin it down but there's always this perspective that came out in that uh magazine um context which also a lot of us in the community we tried to kind of like emulate those ideals. So, you know, it you know, it was it was it really did create that kind of living um such such a powerful sense of um I don't even know it's possibility, isn't it? Because I think excitement is one thing, but it was way beyond that. It was, you know, sincere. There's a real sincerity with a lot of us and yeah, try earnestly trying, right? And and also wouldn't you also say it what Andrew did or transmitted was something I always felt it as his transmission makes us want to live up to our ideals. That's probably the best way to say like this sitting up straight like this wanting to be our best selves. And that that was supported by him in a in a mysterious way. And it was supported by the SA. When you when you are a collective of people that that live in that space where you want to you you want to be your best self, whatever that means for each and every one of us. No. Yeah. I mean Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's funny when I hear that I I don't it I understand what you mean and why you say that but I I the way I put it was um so for you know and it happened recently just you know when we were there with you in in India and um you know Andrew was giving these satsang so I thought I'd go come along and and sit with him and and it was very beautiful to have that because there you know it is such a privilege to sit with someone like that and whether you know and I've sat with you know many people over the last 10 years we've traveled many places and um but when you have a personal connection and there's a there's a self-recognition of a person and you and this but there is something that would happen when Andrew would walk in the room I mean it was kind of like and it wasn't suddenly like you're saying something something stood up and I was reading you Arini Twin's book actually and she said when she met her teacher um who was a Sufi actually a Hindu Sufi so it all mixed up gets mixed up in India but um uh she said that something in her stood up to attention um and she was a she was I think she was she came from the US and she was you know she was a she um she'd read a lot and then but she said this was unmistakable when she met this her teacher who was become a teacher something literally stood up in her and I know and I had that experience so this is really interesting for me all these years later 30 years later and I sat and that thing happened and it wasn't it's not about thought or thinking or hierarchy in relationship to a teacher this is just something that it's it's it's energetic on some level but also there's just something in you that really recognizes something and that's what stands up. So I felt Andrew did awaken that, you know, very profoundly in many of us. And and then we have to deal with that like you're saying that the fact that we don't see all of you can't by nature of being incarnate, you can't, you know, we're limited. So including him, right? Totally big learning. It's the big learning. But I he was very aware of that in the end. Well, yeah. I want to get you I'd love to talk more about that time as well but I I was just one other thing about Andrew and because there was this great book by and he passed away recently Alan Kums called the radiance of being in that he he had talked about you know and I think that all of that work Alan Kum's work was is quite profound but he you know um he talked about attractors in in consciousness and I think Andrew definitely was one one of those, you know, he definitely had this profound way of um yeah, despite himself. That's the funniest thing. I was sitting with him and if we want to talk about that, but um yeah. Yeah, he was a complex person as probably all are but he especially because so many things about him are true at the same time you know. Yeah, I was just thinking about some things I I was wondering over the last few days. has gone a bit blank but uh there was definitely this yeah I because when I sat with him at the end it was because I I you know I I grew up and lived in London so there was this times where we got this big center in America and and everyone was that's the place to be if you really wanted to do meaningful work and you know and Andrew obviously contributed that and it was it was super intense there and in a beautiful way as well as in all the dimensions Right. And um and you put a lot of people to live together in an extended period. It's like, you know, you really you really see a lot of of different things happen, right? And I mean, yeah, um how do I put it in? And so I didn't really go I I spent some time there, you know, I did these extended retreats, you know, like month-long retreats, but I always had this ability to kind of um basically say, "Okay, Andrew, I've kind of done my bit. I'm going I think it's time to go." Because there was there was a lot of um and yeah, this needs a whole lot of unpacking around the the you know, particular ideas of what it means to have a teacher, right? But yeah yeah yeah and and then you have the converse which is there's there aren't no teachers there's friends but um but I would often there was a certain moment where something was just needed I need maybe needed to go back and I'd taken a sabbatical off for my work and said I needed to go and I I did this silent retreat in in in in America for five weeks or something like that or six weeks I can't remember how long and then there was like they they s they emailed me out the blue. And I don't know how I got this email, but they said, "I think you got to come back cuz you're going to you need to work. I'm going to come back and do your job." And I remember just writing to him and just saying, "Look, uh, I think I need to go now because, you know, and this was the interesting thing that there wasn't any there wasn't a breakthrough that was missing or hadn't happened or had happened." Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of my time with Andrew and I think this was the the value that he really did put an emphasis on practice in committed way and I think and he really yeah and that had a lot of that had a lot of impact on a lot of us I feel I know certainly for me it was just something very beautiful about being allowed to you know given permission to really commit yourself to something and at times is because you you needed to look into something. Other times it was just because it was good for you um to develop something some kind of approach to appreciation of your own body or whatever. So he did have these techniques I you know like we you and I talked when we were there that there's probably a whole range of things we should have really developed as well you know but there were other otherilities but yeah so you know we did the best with what we got right but we definitely had some very profound but I remember it being some of those retreats that we did together in that he really was leading I think there There was there was super you know it wasn't in the end it's not about the experience but there were there was so there was so much heart in all of that you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting in the end it's not about the experience and and it is also about the experience because that the powerful experiences actually are transformational. So it's it's one of these paradoxes that we want to hold very very lightly in ourselves. No, we don't want to be experience hunting but we also don't want to dismiss them because they are powerfully transformational. I think that's just what it is. So spiritual physics. Yeah. I mean you've spent a lot of time with him over these years. I remember when I came and I spent time with you guys and everything, it was very um moving because it well and and the first words Andrew and I said to each other, we sat down was that well it feels like no time and it because it isn't there is no time in that dimension in relationship to if you have that kind of connection. Um, and I and I'm, you know, ended up we ended up talking about his a lot of things as you know, but one of the one of the hallmarks of Andrew was I mean he he'd be such a simple person at times as well. That was the the reality. So we were sitting there and then there's this decision about the car that they were going to get. They were getting that new. So we we were basically bantering with him about whether we should get this this color or this color. Right. And it would Yeah. Exactly. You know, and then and then the and then we talked about cars and I said, "Oh, you know, I've um you know, I've lived in London, so I've always cycled, so I never had this need to drive a car and I it's a whole, you know, and I was part of Greenpeace and all, you know, so I was just like I I don't want to the contradictions of being a system." But anyway, so so then I had to learn to drive because I wanted to drive my mother and father around because they were getting elderly. So I went through this the ordeal of getting a license and know you're getting one to you know doing the driving there and then Andrew was like I learned to drive um you know because you know he was you know very much looked after and he didn't have everyone drove him everywhere. So then there's this big thing you know that he had to learn Yeah. when he still was in America it was a big deal. So and the thing is having been through that when you're 50 right he must have been old than 50 when he did that. It's actually really hard to learn to drive. 55. Yeah. And I we were just sitting there comparing because we had the same experience of like this is really hard, you know, and and then and then he looked at me with the way he'd look at you and he, you know, and it was just there's certain humor in in Andrew which was, you know, really fullon at times for sure. And he goes, "Yeah, like we're really growing up now, aren't we?" And it was just this moment we I said, "Yeah, exactly." because that, you know, it's a right of passage in in all over the world. Exactly. Like we're at 50 whatever and we're we're finally growing up. So I mean there was just moments like that which they were really special. Um and he had so many people. That's the thing. He really did. And he you know and he and that also was true. um you know in all of those relationships I feel you know because um yeah so there was that there was that whole side of him being an embodied someone that you could deeply you know um there was this peace a profound peace you felt if you were just with him that I kind of got to experience that it wasn't even just peace it was just this just ongoing kind of you know he used to call about the talk about oh the other thing I want to talk about was Shibanander Ashram and Andrew but that's a whole other thing because that that was the other side of him there was these moments where this was like back in the 90s where he would sit we would go up there to the Shimanander ashram and there's Krishnaandanda there and Chidanandanda and Andrew sitting there basically you know in awe of these you know greats and just to see that in your own teacher at times was it was quite humbling because you always knew that was there was more you know and I for me that had quite a big impact being in those dialogues where it was a dialogue but at the same time you could feel that that kind of acknowledgement of of history so on um and then fast forward to you know those sitting with him I think because he encouraged me he said look I've written this book about you know what I've been all my journey since um you know the sbatical and you the the crash and everything. I think it would be good if you read it. So I you know I hadn't really read a lot of these things just because I was trying to inquire in in a very fresh way myself but I did read it and we talked a lot about it right and I think the thing I really walked away with and I think this is a contribution that Andrew has made through his life. It's yeah we we something very powerful happened around him the great ark and then we try to create it create structures to hold something which can't really be held and then that had cracks in it partly and you know quite profoundly to do with Andrew's own you know things that he didn't see and then then he you know really the fall from grace but then him reckoning with that as as any human can being can and then still having that connection to to and desire for you know awakening and spirit and what that means in this life. I mean and and the big thing in that was the destruction of the perfect the the attainment of perfection. Yes. Exactly. And and I think I think in one way Andrew's contribution is going to be the fact that he could do that or did that in in a really messy way or whatever he went through and whatever so many people went through. But then there was something that relaxed around that you could almost feel him dealing with his own and I you know whatever you know that's up that's between him and you know the cosmos but at the same time the there is just something about he went through this process which was part of all of it and that for me that had quite a quite an impact because you know in some ways regard whatever you want to think he actually is when you when you have a teacher or have that kind of relationship you know it affects you know or you get all of it right so then when over time that person recognizes their own limitation that also has an impact oh absolutely like a teaching itself so I I've already felt personally and you know you know it's very weird you know talking about mystical things I happened to find my way to India at that time and to be able to have that conversation those many conversations with you and many people about this and even with him and I had we've had many of these conversations over the years. So this was also the other side of with Andrew. I mean he had he obviously had there was a whole structure around Andrew but also he was very approachable if you if you were willing to kind of like have you you know hold your own ground and really get into something with him. He was he was always you know I remember one time it was this was towards the end of the thing we were in London and and we were saying Andrew we need to we need to get rid of this building and center right and we really need to do it and we know you love it but actually we really got to get rid of it because it's a real chain around our necks and we're interested in actually doing something different and he really didn't get it and he was like really and then and there was a couple of us just sitting there and we and we weren't really bothered whether he'd understand our point point of view, but because we were really into what we were saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then he just suddenly went, "Oh, I get it." And it was genuine. It was his moments of And it was just really fascinating. So I I I had many of those with him as well. You know, just doing things which weren't part of the and he was there for that. So I you know, you know, it's a life is complex, but I I really felt that the whole thing. So I wanted to do justice to that that I felt that is also Yeah. Yeah. the No, that's beautiful. And I I want to come back to something you said about the book and and uh because I agree. I think he did something after the crash that was very unique. He went through a process that that opened up something for himself and and potentially for all of us. And especially like the thing with the perfection, I find that very empowering for us when when the guru sees, oh, I'm not perfect. That means that a lot is possible without us thinking we have to perfect ourselves first before we can be liberated. So the the liberation teaching changed into a liberation teaching that accepts imperfection as part of manifest reality. And still the liberation can be fully fully experienced and fully lived in a way. And what I wanted to add to what you said about the book is that's why because I I really think it it's it's an important book or not not the book is important but the findings are important and and what Andrew did in his two years in his sabbatical and it was very disappointing for him that literally nobody read it and the few people who read it tore it apart and told everybody else who hadn't read it that it's not a good book and Andrew hasn't seen anything and hasn't done anything and the the fact that nobody gave him any credit for the process he went through even so it was he was scrutinizing himself did you see did he see everything did he see 100% in the end no probably not but do we but the the process he went through was a serious process of grappling with what went wrong, what he did wrong. And he he got to the bottom of it of of clearly seeing what he did wrong. But also and and I also always felt like many people didn't like that. He did not only see what he did wrong, he also still saw very clearly what went right in the community, what he did right, what was happening in the community. and he tried to hold it both in him. That's also why he wanted to teach again. He wanted the learnings to go into the next incarnation of his teaching and him him as a teacher. And to see that many people really really many people didn't allow him to have these insights and and step out of the sabbatical into a new incarnation where things could be different and they were actually different. That was that was a big disappointment for him but also for all of us around him. Yeah, I mean like you're saying the book was there's many ways in which you could disagree and think it's you know and you know there's a lot to be said about some of that book but I I just read it as a you know a bit like looking this review of all of our life right it's like you take any moment or instant and then devoid of context then you can always say this would be better and all the rest of it right and I That is one of the things he he did have and you know you know it was a lot about context for Andrew and that was a lot of the a lot of the teaching actually was all about context. Right. Yeah. And um and I think I think that was um I mean one of the last conversations I had with Andrew was all about this was not not necessarily people not reading the books and all of that. I mean I mean I think people went through all sorts of many processes. So, I mean, and some people felt like they they'd come to ter, you know, all sorts. I don't really know, but I know that um I didn't really feel the need to necessarily. I also felt that Andrew was he had he was there was something going on but at the end he did say we had this very you know towards almost the last words I spoke to him about were you know he said look we've you know you know I really feel that this wound in you know in the community and around me and that I need to heal and he you know it was just one of those things that and you know we and we both were looking at each other in this way way in which you know it's an is you know even if it takes lifetimes And I think he really was wanted that. Um, and I don't think it was just about him wanting, you know, at least in that moment, it wasn't about doing something else. It was because that would be a reflection of trying to um adhere to the, you know, whatever the dharma was. It's like you you you you try and understand the living truth of the matter, you know, and that was that was a really poignant moment because he, you know, and we kind of made this agreement, you know, that, you know, because I think a lot of people, this is the strange thing about this, the the depth of depth of the enlightenment and the shared togetherness is also held as part of the way that things, you know, were, you know, broke up. So yeah, it was all it's all in that. And I I agree. I really feel I did feel there was um you know, Andrew was Andrew and this is the thing he was this New York Jew that was just kind of had the life, you know, very nice life, you know, and he um and then he, you know, pursued the spiritual path and he really was um a New York Jew, you know, very intense as well, right? It's not everyone's cup of tea, right? and and you know so I don't know if I said that but there was something yeah he was uh whereas I can tell you when when when a New York Jew with that intensity meets a Swiss uh woman and and works together with her that that created a lot of interesting sparks of dynamics right of tension and uh of tension and beautiful coherence also. Yeah. So, so you're talking about an east end, you know, IndoPakistani guy that has no Exactly. What's the crossover there, you know, apart from Brick Lane where the Jewish uh, you know, community lived and then was taken over by, you know, but and but and yet there is this just this profound sharing of something very deep and that's possible and that I, you know, it's all there. It's all in those moments of just you know and and we we'd sit together at the end there and there moments where he would would kind of like you could almost you just fall into this very deep meditation and he then be like okay then talk about something else but it kept happening it kept this full kept happening and I remember you know a lot of lay layers just would disappear and this was this is the kind of um also thing that you know I was telling earlier there There was it wasn't just about transmission. It was it was a perspective about there's more going on here than you know what we're um concerned with, you know, and I think he always he was just always aware of that, you know. Yeah, he was. And and and if if you wanted to if you allowed yourself, you could fall into that space with him. And that that was the most beautiful place to be to to be in this space with him and and engage with him from that place. That's also what you described earlier as as the timeless dimension that that uh eradicates everything else that is on the surface and everything else that probably the small self would want to discuss or tear apart. But that there was a a level of connection that that is timeless and that is still here now. I mean it's it's not gone anywhere. It's still it's still available. Yeah. And that's so beautiful. Yeah. Is there anything that you wanted to bring in in addition to what we already covered? Because you've been all over the place, but I I don't know. I just exactly the kind of arc of of it all because you know when I was uh probably about 22, there was this woman called Caroline. I'll mention her but she you know she was this can't remember maybe she was Austrian or something but she was quite old even then and then um and she was you know supposedly psychic so she looked we we used to have some quite fun debates and I think she used to me so we used to you know she's quite a quite um character let's put it that way and and we would sit together after these meditations and then she looked at me one day and says you know for him you're going to be there to the end. Wow. I was like, what what are you talking about? And um you know Yeah. Then you were here some month two months ago. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What a story. I mean it's still unfolding. That's the thing I feel. Um Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to I wanted to acknowledge that the catalyst the catalytic kind of impact he had on on myself for sure and yeah and on many people that's something that that puzzled me always to how many people we meet and met that have not even been students of Andrew that just oh I say the name but we were at this we were at the World Parliament of religions I can't remember it was 96 or seven or whatever and um we were we had this we had the magazine in it. We were handing it out there chopas there and all these characters you know you know it was beautiful experience but then there was this very famous singer which I won't say who it is but she was like we saw her like oh my god it's and then we went up to her and she she lit saw the magazine says and her assistants next to her and she says uh we said can we give you this magazine she goes oh my god this is my favorite magazine and oh wow and took it from us and told her assistant like make sure this is on my table. Um and then she looked at us both and um and we were all in awe cuz was like you know um had had you know just a beautiful person and she well you guys are you know and I think she some kind of Buddhist practic goes you guys are really living something aren't you and and we were like yeah but you're you and we were having this kind of I don't think I even told him that but it was actually very cool um moments like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Shall we leave it with that? Let's go with that. Thank you so much.