Annick Macher and Vincent Drouot: Conversations from the Heart - Honouring Andrew Cohen

Welcome to conversations from the heart honoring Andrew Cohen through our stories. My name is Daniela Bombassei. I was a student of Andrew's for 17 years and for the past 9 years I had the privilege of living and working alongside him. This series is a tribute to his life, his teaching and the revolutionary fire he sparked in so many of us. Through these intimate conversations we remember not only the man but the depths of transformation he catalyzed in our lives. May these stories keep his legacy alive honoring the sacred thread that connects us and allowing his voice to continue resonating through ours. So, welcome Vincent. Welcome Annick and Hi Daniela. Hi Daniela. Hi Vincent. Hi Annick. to have the conversation today with the two of you. And this is the fourth conversation that I'm having. So and uh I really love to do this and it's for me a a way of getting to terms with Andrew's death and and also a part of the grieving process. But I was especially looking forward to our conversation today and I want to tell everybody who is listening later why this is. And I have to take Shadow down. Hello Shadow. So Vincent, Annick and I know Andrew exactly the same time. I think we all met him in 2008. And what I'm sure about is that we all became committed core students in 2009 at the same day and at the same place. So at that time there was a a formal acceptance process where you had a meeting with we had a meeting with Andrew and uh I think we were five of us and the process was that that we were asking Andrew if we can become his students. And for me I can say that I asked him over the year that I knew him by then two times already and and he always postponed it and said you come to a retreat first, get clearer about what teacher I am. And I'm saying that because uh Andrew always made it very clear that he was a tough teacher and that we need to be aware that this is a very serious path that we are going with him. But anyway, the three of us became students of his at that it was autumn, probably October I would say in 2009. And I think that created a bond between the three of us that that uh yeah, is is here still and has brought us together over the last 16 years again and again in in the love for Andrew and his teaching and and yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. I I think that they um it's it's um the commitment, the choice we are making. Uh he really wanted to be to be sure that we know the as you said the the seriousness of the choice we are going to make and I remember that I was ready to die. Yeah. It feels like I don't want the the previous Vincent or the story of this life. It has to change and it was very at the level of the soul that is asking. And I I remember that he said in front of us and then looking to his dog and saying you see people are crazy to ask to become a student of me. People are so crazy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mhm. And yeah, he wanted us to take it very seriously and uh I think none of us and probably I will ask other people probably in this conversation, none of us really knew what we were getting into, no? No, exactly. And I remember you said that Andrew was a tough teacher and I agree. But it's also what I wanted to to get in my life at one moment uh because I was really attracted by his radicality and his clarity, you know, and his quality of being going straight to the point. So in that sense that sense he was tough, but it was also needed like to to to gave me and us like a backbone on the spiritual path. So that was that was really also also important. And also to go back to seriousness I remember Andrew always made this uh difference between being serious and being deadly serious. And I remember that I was like afraid but like really I it was like something very difficult for me just to to see what deadly serious was meaning. Because I thought I was really serious, but it took me like times and it took me years for me to really get it what it means to be deadly serious and it was I was impressed at the beginning when not understanding this deadly serious. It was like what what does Andrew mean with that, you know? Deadly serious, no it's like too much. And I think the reaction of my ego was like no. I don't I want to be serious but not deadly serious and really it took me time and years to really get it like really deeply. And I'm I'm really grateful to to Andrew for having been so patient Mhm. also over these years. Yeah, I I would suggest that we later on probably I would like to start with with our origin story with Andrew but later on I thought the three of us are a good combination to also talk about what we think what has changed when Andrew after the crash started to teach again and because we experienced him before and after and that's probably something people could be interested in. But let's start probably with either Annick or Vincent uh telling the story how you met Andrew and and what happened in that meeting or when when when you felt like the the fire igniting and that that you felt like I found my teacher, I found my guru. Mhm. Yeah. Um I I It was meeting with I think it's with the magazine first and with the help of Rosa Claire who was a psychotherapist in the in France and I was joining her and I remember a meeting that I had with her because she was also a very good bridge between Andrew's teaching and what she were doing as a I would say integral uh psychotherapy or things like that. That the first meeting that I had with her and I came with my story that I wanted to know more about karma and my own personal life and what's what's wrong. And she started to detail very simple things and yeah, but you have a good health. You have money. So everything is okay. But the universe is waiting for you. Mhm. And so there was a boom saying don't care about your pity uh story but come, there is something bigger to do. And and then I met the magazine which have French translation. And and then I was very inspired by saying okay, there is people who are caring about the evolution of consciousness and because I I felt deeply that that was the key. The evolution of consciousness is not fixing the economy or the ecology or whatever. But having a a momentum and doing that alone is impossible, but seeing that there is a a group of people who are really doing it. And reading also Andrew's book was very moving touching very deeply that there was a in in the simple book um uh awake awakening is a secret uh enlightenment is a secret. There were Enlightenment is a secret, yeah. I had to translate. The and and the simple first sentences has such a reason resonating in me. It's if there is a transmission just through the words and I and I and I started to have the same sense that for my first spiritual teacher. In in martial art we said often when when the student is ready, he will meet the the the master. So when you will ready, you will meet him. But when you will meet him, you will know directly that the this is him or not. And this is what happened when I came in the room for the first retreat in 2008. I came in the room and I see him arrived and there was a boom. Also the the the clear answer, yeah, this is him and no question at all after that. Yeah. For me like my first entry point to Andrew was also books and I first read, I remember it was uh Living Enlightenment a call for evolution beyond the ego, I think. And so I read several books and at one point, I think it was in 28, I had a really the opportunity to go to Aix-les-Bains where Andrew gave a talk at that time. It was in the context of a forum about love. And so there were many, you know, speakers over there and I was very very interested in going to Andrew's. And so it was really like Andrew like as I could, you know, really know him afterwards, but it was like what is what is love? Everybody I think in the room including me was coming from like a green personal development in a spiritual context and we were more about, you know, um being friends all together and being loving each other something like that. And Andrew was like, "No, love is really uh when you try and you give everything to develop yourself and to evolve." And all the talk was about that. And it was funny because I was with people I I really love them and and it's not everybody was, "What is this guy saying?" And I was just like blown away by, you know, and it struck me so I had I think like a little enlightenment moment very short but very deep. And I knew from that time that it was it. And so I from that moment I I decided also and we we were lucky enough to have a center in Nina and also in Paris where I can get in contact with people over there. And we started like to yeah, to to to walk the path all together also with the the teachings. So it was but really a striking uh experience at that moment. Really striking one. Yeah, that's interesting. I can probably tell my story because I haven't in the in the former conversations and it probably makes sense in in this context. I found Andrew in May 2008 and I just came out of a divorce and I was looking for a spiritual teacher online of all places on the internet and I found Andrew and I found his website and I found his teaching and I always felt and still feel it was at the beginning his teaching that attracted me, that hit me like like lightning and I remember the website then spoke about the universe project which is nothing less than creating a new culture of people beyond ego and this that just hit me so hard like the potential of there was a part in me that could imagine that this would be a totally different world. At that time, I cannot say that I had any idea what ego transcendence means and and still it's a mystery and and uh even Andrew's ego teaching has developed over time and uh my understanding has deepened over time. And I still feel like, yeah, a culture with people that act beyond ego most of the time, that have their center of gravity beyond ego would be a totally different world. And that is the vision, the utopian vision that I felt so attracted to. It was for me never about personal enlightenment or awakening which is the ground to for for the collective one obviously but this this potential that we could live in a different world with was what attracted me. And then only half a year later I I met him in person in every retreat in Germany. And uh and then I went to a long retreat in Tuscany and in that first retreat in Tuscany where I for the first time was really exposed to his his transmission and his teachings I remember I was there for 3 weeks and my body, not my soul but my body was vibrating in a subtle way the all 3 weeks long and it was it was uh what it still is when I look back, the easiest retreat. I was just flying on a on on kind of a cloud of of heightened consciousness and and my body was vibrating. There was there was a subtle thing happening in me that in in the same way never happened later and it also never was so easy as in this first 3 weeks because later on as you both know and many probably of the listeners know uh retreats are often very challenging and uh for for many parts in ourselves. But that was my beginning with Andrew. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that my first retreat was also um So the part of the transcending ego it requires the seriousness we are talking about. And he it you cannot do it if you really take it seriously. So that means you you you have to see our own protection and even the retreat I was seeing that during the whole week, it was 9 days. And at the beginning was very inspiring and then I felt very difficult moment with with with anger and resistance and everything but but the the heat we had you know, when you when we just expressed that we something there was a connection that give me the trust that I have to back through and and everything was so logical also. It was very different than all the traditions that rewrite and repeat things and then we even lost the track of what that means. So there was a such a logical and and rational way to understand something that is beyond the mind or that is difficult to get with the mind and then I was passing through this help and at the end I really came out with saying, "Oh gosh, I have and thanks God that I and thanks you, Andrew that I have every answers that I waiting for to understand why we are here." Which is not a a simple and easy answer but uh it was that creating that a landmark in my life. That the life after has been totally different. So there was this path and knowing that even in it happens all the time during 15 years. I'm sure you experienced also the moment of uncomfort. That it's uncomfortable for who? So for part of us doesn't like it but but keeping the trust and seeing that, yeah, you you know that you are going somewhere that it will help you to develop and which is will give you which is more freedom but also uh having a wider uh and and more expanded perspective on things and so being able to embrace more complexity. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, for Yeah, exactly. No, I agree with both of you and for me my the experience of my first retreat and I think it's it was the same at the same year on the same year in the same year and it was like two two things like was very present in myself. First, it was like the the the strong and loving intention in Andrew's words I could hear at that hear at that moment that he wanted us to awake. He wanted us to to to to bring us, you know, somewhere with very such a loving uh yeah, intention. It was really around all these words even if he was straight to the point but you could see this really this inspiration and this aspiration to to lead us, you know, somewhere else in something higher, bigger. Uh so that was my first thing. And the second for with this this first retreat was not like having answers but the way Andrew's Andrew asked questions or how he put, you know, the whole teaching into a perspective that was for me like an opening on something I had no clue even, you know, a way of of having a bigger perspective on on what what was my path, what was my life but also our life and I agree there was this also always this collective intention also beyond, you know, this Even if he talked like to to you personally, it was also this collective dimension that was always present. And through both aspects, I was like, "Wow, yeah, that's the guy I have really to to follow." And uh Mhm. Yeah, and it's interesting when I think about the three of us I think what is uh worth mentioning here is we as as we said, we were here before the crash, like from 2008 we were students of Andrew's, but the three of us, all three of us were committed core students. That that was the kind of student that still was living in in the world with with uh professions. We We We had our work and in the free time we followed the teaching, yeah. And uh so we were not in in the center of of uh of where the core students were that had given up their their normal lives and dedicated their lives fully to being with Andrew and fully to the to the awakening of that the universe project was pointing to or were working on the magazine. And so, everything that we did and I I know the three of us, all of us did a lot in our free time to to support the work. But it was a a very specific way we were engaging with Andrew's teaching. And then after the crash when Andrew re-emerged and I stayed in contact with him in in these two years and then he asked me to help him uh build up his teaching and his teaching work again. And both Vincent and Anna and Annick were right there uh to support this and I think we can we can really say that after that in in this new phase of his life, we we came much closer to Andrew and and uh it was uh a beautiful new way of relating to Andrew as our guru, but also as a friend, as a vulnerable human being because we saw him uh before he even taught again uh and when he after the crash was was struggling a lot with what was happening. And I know both of you also went to visit him in India in this time of the sabbatical. Mhm. Probably you want to say something about that. But what I find interesting is that in this new phase of of his teaching uh there the three of us were in a totally different relationship to him and were his main supporters. Right. Yeah. Um Because I think we are aware about about um even when entering as a student, I I felt coming into a huge bubble and it was a caring bubble for evolution and there was a a huge support, but uh uh I I started to be aware about the effort and what happened before to to come to the beautiful teaching we we had in hands. And um and even it was it wasn't really spoken clearly that the emergence of the collective that and the effort that has been made. And so, we we were and we still have have the legacy of that. And um but that's true that um the just after the collapse there were there was a reflex to protect the flame, the teaching. There was the the beauty of it. Well Yeah, whatever happened, there's still something that is a jewel or that has to be protected. And and that was our reflect the the reflex. And and even I remember that for me, whatever happened, it it's Andrew is a man. He's a human being. And and when we try something and then can see when I has been an entrepreneur the fails, the succeed the success and all it's part of it. And but but the beauty of the man, the beauty of the teaching has to be honored. And and so, there was a kind of very natural uh let's see each other. Let's let's pass go through what has to be done to just to I remember I wrote him a simple email at that time was, "I'm sure you will resolve this equation." Mhm. And later on, I I was able to say him back, "See, you see, you resolved the equation." Mhm. Yeah, yeah, during after after the crash uh it was really painful in a sense to see, you know, Andrew as a man going through this ordeal. And at the same time our response, and it was really strong, uh was, "We are here for you and we are like waiting for you. Just, you know, do what you have to do in order to go through because it's your path. But don't forget that we are all here with you and we can wait for you when you are ready." And it happened after in 2016. And but there was like a really a strong field around him, like an invisible hand supporting him uh you know, through this difficult uh time for for him. But just as it's now, like we we we had to to to hold the beacon of evolutionary enlightenment, no matter what, you know, at that time because Mhm. So, for me it's there is it was like a little bit similar just to now because it's such a jewel, you know? So, uh there was no doubt that we were there for him and trying to do what could be the most convenient and the best also for him to to to come back to teaching to the teachings. Mhm. as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I found it fascinating to see him re-emerge as a teacher. And there was a lot of as as many of the listeners will know, there was a lot of pushback against Andrew teaching again. And at the same time he felt ready and we felt ready. So, we started to have these retreats and when I look back to to the first retreat in 2016 and then the last one now last January here in Tiruvannamalai I find it fascinating how how much has developed in these nine years and uh I think it's probably worth to to try to put in words what we feel has changed in the teachings. And without going into too much details also for people that don't know the teachings like word by word, but I I think there is a way where we probably can express what we feel has changed and and uh because I find it important that to convey that Andrew has grappled with a lot of what has led to the crash. And he came out on the other side side as a as a better teacher without losing the strength of his teaching that we just so beautifully described, like that that the power of his teaching and also the the clarity and the rationality and and uh straightforwardness of his teaching. And at the same time many things were changed in in the teaching, but also in him as a teacher. Mhm. Right. I think there was several dimensions that changed and it's it's a deepening. He started to really to go deeper than we could even imagine. Uh and one dimension, for example, that is touching him, you said as a human being, as a teacher, and and with the teaching is this human part, the the human predicament, the integration of it. Not not even if we use the word the absolute and the relative, it's it's not making a distinction uh or or making a distinction, but not a separation. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's it's like we do right now. It's it's not a Vincent who's talking and then experiencing the absolute. It's the absolute is there and it's talking through me and and as a human being with all imperfection. And and and and the starting to eliminate any um any stops, any uh limitation that the mind can do and it and it was forcing us as he did for himself. That was a real a path for the 10 years that he has to go through the the depression all the questioning and so he went through it so teaching but also then seeing that he has to integrate the human imperfection the human predicament and and uh and and tell him human suffering you know human suffering very much yeah exactly but one of the part that I mentioned that changed a lot Mhm. Yeah yeah I I agree and I think you you you you talked about that also Daniela in previous conversations that is like this you know total embrace of reality as you mentioned our human imperfect part and also us as the true self as the authentic self and touched and being our really um it's it's really our true nature so but for me it was like a really this this total embrace of all realities uh and manifest and manifest absolute and relative uh reality and and trying to really to to cope with that and to to to see how both sides so to say relative and absolute could really uh be together how the the absolute can enlighten our relative you know world and dimension in order to be like the best uh witnesses for you know the absolute so that that was really constant uh in the last years and I found it really beautiful in in the sense because it was uh more integrated than before it was not like but it was not the case but seen from my perspective as a student at that time like put in boxes like you know the ego the true self that could be you know like different parts that came together and were integrated in the last year in his teachings and that was really beautiful really beautiful. Yeah that's beautifully said. There were much less absolutes in his teaching so to say like ego is here authentic self is here and and these kind of things and as you say much more integration. But ironically or paradoxically this created a much clearer non-dual embrace of reality or or real awakening to to the fullness of reality. And I I sometimes felt like his whole teaching made so much more sense that the more integrated everything was. It it made so much sense uh all his tenants and and everything that he taught. Mhm. And what I found impressive is that that uh I mean he was walking his talk he was evolving him himself he was growing and he was evolving the teaching. In in subtle and and also significant ways but but many of the changes in the teachings I felt were very subtle and you you really needed to know the teaching to to feel the subtlety of of of these changes that were very significant. Yeah exactly and I think also we we learned more like over the past years to navigate with paradoxes and with certainties like refining ourselves you know in order to really try to get it for for real so it was like looking through a magnifying glass you know on not on the teachings but on the reality itself through the teaching which is really really amazing yeah. And and it was also fascinating wasn't it that he he constantly pointed us to or encouraged us to live up to our own experiences. He wanted us to be finders he he wanted us to to not be experience dependent. He wanted us to to recognize that we had enough experiences spiritual experiences of higher states and that we that we took the responsibility of being finders and and bringing what we learned from him what the teaching gives us in terms of of authentic shining through that we bring this into the world. Mhm. Yeah. He he didn't want people to stay seekers forever. He didn't want that he wanted partner in in this endeavor to to liberate uh the world and he really meant it. I have no doubt he really meant it. Yeah. Yeah I can I can say that for for the last three years that I accelerate my frequency of coming to meet you and Andrew and and then that that was really the how he were kicking my ass and saying show not tell. Yeah. So so please and he was pointing every that I was able to say. And so it was no that's not real and so that was also the demanding part but this is what I looking for it's how and he was doing as you said also with love. Mhm. He was a support he was saying that if you want it this is the truth so so if you are good you take it and so show not tell so that that when I I started to stop telling stories and and blah blah blah. Mhm. And and that's it's it's still here because it becomes a rule and and trying to to to be that real as he was inviting us to to be. Mhm. Yeah yeah exactly and I also like you know the words you used Daniela like being partners to Andrew because as an individual meaning like we have to to to to yeah to to bear witness for the changes or that were um coming through the teachings when when the work was done of course not like like that but uh so bearing witness also for real that it was not like you know something we have to learn or something that was stuck in our mental or something like that but more like be what you what you are what you have recognized at the level you are at but please express it like 100%. Exactly. That was really really strong and also as a collective group around Andrew it was also like you know how can we work how can we hang together in a new way uh really like being co-partners with Andrew but also with with each others. Yeah. And it gave like um a different taste you know in in in being together. Um it was yeah. So that's interesting I'm sorry. No no go for it. Because I thought about the the partner being a partner with Andrew and I realized that yeah but that that's put light on the complexity of the relationship that it was we were building with him because there there was different layers of being in relationship with the guru and and that's very that means that you cannot be partner as flat and equal. He was always advocating that I'm sorry but I'm representing the highest and and you take it or not but uh he he was part of his job as a guru so so you can be a partner with but maintaining this hierarchy also was very important and there was then the relationship with the teacher and then the relationship with the man and as a friend and um I struggled with that at the beginning it was very complex and because it's not usual and and it it was each time there was a kind of oh oh yeah oh yeah and it kind of embrace everything and come to me there will be also um a way to relate with this complexity and for example the I remember some moment on the table having lunch and then I started to express a realization that I had and very passionate with it he was saying and taking my hand and saying please Vincent take the moment when we are in the teaching to do that. So those simple advices was helpful to make even the what he he was pushing us is to be context aware. Yeah. More and more. Mhm. What is appropriate? That's very true. And what you are pointing to, Vincent, is something that I think is very relevant for what we did in the last 10 years with Andrew, that we all started to create a new guru-student relationship all together, which meant a lot for how the the guru or the teacher is acting and interacting, and it meant a lot for us because what you just described, I I can only agree to. It's far more complex when you have the awareness that there are different kind of relationships to the same person that that play a role and that that need to be honored. And that we have to be context-aware, as you say. When is it the teaching role that speaks to the student and we have to kind of stop in our tracks and hear it when when it comes from from the higher wisdom of the guru. And when is it the the friend where we can have a light-handed or or also compact conversation where where we have to to to stand up and and be equals in a conversation about politics or food or chess. With with with chess with chess it was difficult, wasn't it, Vincent? Because he knew I think he was a he was a chess encyclopedia, you know? You You know what I mean? Andrew knew so much about chess. So, there he probably also was the hierarchy, you know? Yeah, exactly. But yeah, the complexity of this new student-teacher relationship was very demanding and and very satisfying also to work on and to find out what works and what doesn't and and how we have to navigate it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it unfolded as the same as this new relationship as we built it over time, also unfolded like a new sense or a new meaning in natural hierarchy. Because I struggled so much before, you know, with hierarchy and natural hierarchy. What could does that really mean? Um and but seeing that yes, there are different levels of development and natural hierarchy is really like the very fabric of an evolving universe. It's needed if we want to to develop and and to grow. And it's really needed. It has to be pulled up. We have to be pulled up by something. So, in that sense, natural hierarchy is really amazing and and needed. It's a natural law. It's not something we have to create or to put in in words or in actions. It's just a recognition, a deep recognition and really a bowing also in front of this natural hierarchy, which is the way the the universe is evolving as consciousness and as us as well. Yeah, totally. And and I felt strongly that we in our small sangha, and we obviously were much smaller than it was before the crash, but in our small sangha, we we found a way to really honor this natural hierarchy in a very beautiful way. And that that's why it it really worked so well and was so promising what we what we started to create together. Mhm. Yeah, because when you get the real sense, you know, everything is very light and very smooth also in relationships. It gives more space also for creativity to come, you know? And and and and it was not all, "Okay, what is she or he doing?" Da da da. Because it has no sense when you really get it what natural hierarchy means and how it is needed. So, from that moment, you just let go of, you know, of what you can think and just follow the flow, really. In a more Yeah, more deeper and in a deeper and more creative way. Yeah, exactly. It's probably a good point also to talk a little bit about about our collective work, about the intersubjective dialogue work, because the three of us were obviously not there in 2001 when the big breakthrough happened into the intersubjective work. But we did evolutionary dialogue work or enlightened communication, as it was called before the crash in in many of the centers. And we we did it before the crash and we restarted it after. And it's probably also interesting to to talk a little bit about that. My sense was that when we restarted it in Manifest Nirvana and we started to have intersubjective nonduality courses over over years and and holons that worked together in intersubjective nonduality, that it in a way developed very easily into a deep practice where everybody could could feel the impact that this holonic work has on their own spiritual development, but also what what collective potential could be there. And at the same time, for myself, I can say over the last 10 years, I also developed a lot of humility in seeing that to do the real thing, to really come together beyond the ego, it takes a lot. And uh Yeah, it's both true. The power of the intersubjective work was was right there in consciousness and we could tap into. And it's not a an easy practice if if you want to do it seriously, you know? Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And what what I find beautiful is that the the it it when the the rules of practice and started to be more simple, but still very demanding. But the posture that we were asking in because we had 10 points for the enlightened communication. But then we reduced it as four, five. And and it was more easy to to to integrate it, to practice it. And And also what was beautiful is that the what happened in the past, um uh everybody benefit from it. But also even for the last 5 years, for example, of the holons we had, when some people came, they benefit from what happened in the previous holons. So, there there is a kind of transmission and a a building. Mhm. And so, I find that the the the rules and the practice became more precise. And as a facilitator, I can see that for the last retreat, I really hadn't to do facilitation. It It wasn't a um something that was um uh have to control something or whatever. It It was really being in the flow and just being there when something has to be adjusted, but it was just a pure flow. And um so, it it wasn't uh that easy. There there was a kind of support that coming from mystery. Mhm. Yeah, for me the the rules of enlightened communication as it was even at during enlightened next, so they were clear as well. And they they they didn't really change, I mean, formally. But it was more like a list, you know? So, listen and add to something, speak when you have something to say. Da da da. It But it Maybe it's my also my, you know, uh uh expression only, but it was like more going through a list in order to make something happen. And and it was great, to be honest. I was It was totally new and it was really We have also to honor that, I mean. Because we could after, you know, at Manifest Nirvana like refine also the whole process. And also because Andrew emphasized a lot listening, the listening part. Like, listen. First, listen. Listen. Listen deeply. Listen. And after talk and add and something. And for me, sometime I I hear Andrew's voice in my head, you know, like, "Listen. Listen. Listen." You know, as this Buddha, you know, statue, when they have very big ears and long ears. For me, it's just like, "Oh, wow. Yes, that's that kind of listening." Listen to something that you don't already know. Mhm. So, for me, it was like maybe the change, not that it was new, but more like more an emphasis on this listening and also coming from So, it helped us and me to come from a place where I don't already know, really. Because if you listen, you don't have to think about what you know or what you have to say or what you have to do. So, it was more spontaneous and yeah, yeah, response like to to what is there and in that sense, um, uh, I think we Yeah, it was more a refining process of this enlightened communication rather than finding something else in my sense. Yeah, I agree and I feel strongly that through through the breakthrough in 2001, the grooves of of the potential of intersubjective dialogue have been created in consciousness. Mhm. This sounds a little mythic, but I really believe this is true. And that allowed allowed and and still allows people to tap into that potential much easier than than the first people that that really had to go through a lot to to arrive at this breakthrough where a group of of people then then landed in the in this space where where where they feel the oneness that that they are and where where you feel like everybody speaks from the same place and and and the the new is bubbling up in between the people and this was a real a real breakthrough in consciousness. Mhm. And I think that's one of Andrew's, uh, and his song was biggest achievement in terms of a a new kind of spirituality and a new practice to practice spirituality. Mhm. Right. And, uh, the beauty of Andrew is, uh, that he did it as a scientist. So, he had the intuition, but he wanted to discriminate, to impact, to test. And, uh, and it requires a lot of effort and, uh, that's the part of, uh, the the the the the challenges that has been made to make that happen, but he he followed strongly his intuition that it's possible, but as the potential for human for human beings to be together, then to to to be able even to create more potential. So, to make potential to emerge, but the structure of the science of it, he was able to to write it down and to explain it and and my at the beginning, I I remember that, um, uh, I believe that it could be possible to have that emergence between people and I was just imagining it and but I experienced it in the Colorado retreat. It was in 2011, I think. Yeah. And it was a 3-weeks retreat and our group, so the second part was, uh, of the retreat was about becoming and we had So, we were 300 people. So, that was big and every day we had 1-hour discussion group with, uh, we were 20 people. And one day we don't really achieve the goal and, uh, the discussion didn't work. And so, the facilitator just expressed what happened and then and Andrew said, "Hey guys, you failed. So, are you ready to do it again tonight?" So, everybody responded, "Yes, let's do it." So, we had a a huge, uh, pressure, but a motivation. And then I experienced it. It was the the explosion of 20 people started to speak and you feel that this is one consciousness who is speaking to itself in a in a in a vibrating way and, uh, and more awakened uh, and and so that that was After that, it was impossible for me just to forget that. It was Yeah. it's possible. And then it took time to make it happen because it's it as I said, it's not easy and it requires a lot. So, that's why also what we learned by practicing uh, it's it's not that easy, but, um, but the the more we do it, the more we learn and and it's it's still one thing. It's the let the the authentic self speak. Mhm. Exactly. Mhm. Yeah, for me, the the practice of intersubjective dialogue is really the practice of letting go in action. Which is, you know, really be more interested on on what is going to to happen and and to be discovered among us. So, it it's really because we we are used to let go in meditation, but in action, it's like very difficult and for me, especially during the last years, it was more like a training for letting go in action. And because I could see myself like this strong desire to control and to say, "What do we have to find?" No, it was not in our hands. It was in God's hands, if you want like to to really do your your part, which was, "Okay, I let go. I am very present. I am very aware and I listen." So, it was a miracle really happening in each intersubjective dialogues. And, uh, yeah, it was really amazing. It was really a co-creation of something really. Yes, and it still is. Yeah. Exactly. This this part we we don't have to put into the past. That's the beauty of it and I'm pretty sure it it will it will move forward through us and with with whatever we do because this is one of the pearls or the jewels that Winston mentioned Mhm. or or unique that that we want to preserve and, uh, and and take forward. Mhm. Yeah, because, uh, I experienced this miracle, uh, on every time I'm doing it. Every time I I let the authentic self speak, I let the absolute speaks or and I love the way even Andrew, uh, framed it or named it simply is in meditation, you realize and you let go. Realize and let go again and again. And in the becoming, you realize and you respond. And again and again and, uh, it's it's I find those, um, sentences very helpful. It's like simple words, so I realize and I respond or did I respond? Exactly. Seeing only afterwards if it was the right choice, but, uh, living in that trust. Mhm. I think the, um, Yeah, you talk about that with, um, with the the the the the previous with Michael about trust Yes. I think that's Mhm. Yeah. I I remember so helpful um, maybe the the first years that I was following, um, Andrew often I was, uh, sitting on the front, you know, in retreats, but also in when there was conference because I wanted to see in the eye in his eyes his his own his own motivation. And and I had something, well, during a retreat that I saw in the eyes is that he wasn't doing that for himself at all. There was, uh, an integrity. Mhm. And from that point, I just, uh, realized, "Okay, I have no doubt anymore and we are together in this." Mhm. Is there anything else you the two of you would like to bring into this conversation? We covered a lot, it feels like. Yeah. Wow. I mean, there are many many things. I think we could like keep going for like years, you know, bringing like this thread or this thread, you know, right? But, uh, Yeah. Yeah. Well, that thing, the, yeah, it's still it's still very fresh. I mean, Andrew passed. Mhm. And at the same time feeling the, still the importance of the legacy of what he bring in the world and even what he added to the spiritual Mhm. area the the spiritual domain there is an addition even if some people like in the evolutionary spirituality like Sri Aurobindo or Teilhard de Chardin added pieces but he was able to make it and and what I find miraculous from him that he never took things from the past and reading text. He was always asking for true and real experience. Yeah. That that that's makes things so so untouchable that are real. So it was the real experience and the real discovery and then so the the way we're able to make it as a practice. Evolutionary spirituality not as a theory but really as a practice with human beings even in integral philosophy because the the intersubjective nondual dialogue is is also came from Ken Wilber with Hollands but uh What is a human being Holland? That's the next step of the evolution so and he he added the way you how the way we can do it really. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Okay, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you both. Giving us the opportunity like to go through all these memories but also alive memories. It's not like something from the past as you say we are still doing it and and it seems to me that Andrew was here with us you know through this call really and no thanks thank you very much for for for sharing also that together and also to to follow the thread of Andrew's legacy over years. Thank you. Thank you so much.