Andrew Cohen- Bangkok Q&A 1995

good evening uh so um what I'd like to do tonight is just to maybe spend a few minutes just sitting quietly together maybe about 5 or 10 minutes just sitting quietly meditating together and then uh and then after that maybe I can spend about an hour uh taking people's question uh about the spiritual life in general um many of you I really don't know and of course my very first time being here in Bangkok so it's very difficult uh for me to give a general talk even though I could do it what I would prefer to do is really uh through hearing some of your questions I'll be able to respond I think uh in a way that would be much more helpful so maybe in the time that we're that we're sitting together quietly uh some of you especially those of you have come to me to see for the see me for the first time tonight there's about 30 of you here you might want to think about uh what those questions are that you that you already have about the spiritual life many people who are interested in spiritual matters are usually preoccupied on a conscious or unconscious level with certain fundamental questions uh and and the more the individual begins to care about spiritual life spiritual matters these fundamental questions uh begin to become more pressing and in some rare individuals actually get to a point where these questions become so important that they find themselves uh uh compelled to to do something about it to respond in in in a very passionate in a passionate way to the call of the heart so maybe during the time that we're sitting together uh those of you who have come could could maybe look look inside yourself and ask your eles you know what those questions are and maybe after we say quietly together you can uh give me a chance to to respond to them okay okay thank you was very nice I'm ready to begin and uh I'm curious just before before we start I think it might be uh helpful to say that that really in the end in relationship to spiritual life and to all spiritual seeking and to the goal of spiritual seeking there's really only fundamentally two spiritual questions and all all the spiritual questions and have been asked throughout all the ages up until the time that we're living in all boil down to fundamentally two questions the first question well one doesn't necessarily go in front of the other they're both equal importance but one question of course is the question who am I and this is a question that has been asked the human beings have been asking themselves for thousands of years and it hasn't stopped so any true Seeker any Seeker who is genuine in their interest or in their desire to liberate themselves from fear and ignorance becomes very interested in this question of who am I really because the genuine Seeker the true Seeker uh through beginning to absorve observe their own experience with the greater scrutiny and greater attention begins to uh question the validity of many of the fundamental ideas that they have about themselves and through and through this kind of scrutiny quite often uh the individual begins to uh experience U moments where it it becomes apparent to them that who they are is far more than they ever imagined and uh far different than they had believed and uh and some people don't stop at that but actually continue until such a time as to when they have no doubt about who they really are and that Discovery uh in in rare cases can utterly and finally liberate a person from uh all false Notions of of self and personal identity and the other question that's of equal importance and that human beings have been asking themselves for Millennia the other spiritual question is very simply the question is how shall I live because those human beings who uh begin to open up or begin to become more sensitive or more aware of what it means to be conscious of the fact that we're alive uh often uh find themselves as a result of uh experiencing life with greater depth and greater Clarity find themselves becoming uh uncomfortable with uh living in the old way and the old way is usually the way that one has been living for quite a long time one's conscience or one's spiritual conscience or True Heart uh be becomes uh Disturbed or agitated by living in a uh in in in a very conditioned way and so and so because of this many spiritual Seekers throughout the ages have begun to look for a different way to live and this is uh this is it's a very big question and it's a very difficult question and human beings have been trying to really solve this answer find out the answer to this question for for a very long time is what is that way to live that makes the most sense and what I mean by makes the most sense is is is what what way is there to live that is a pure and direct expression of uh of this revelation of of the true heart or which means in other words those rare moments when one feels very deeply connected and very deeply in touch with one's deepest sense of self uh what what way is there to live this this rather confusing and difficult and challenging human life what way is there to live that would uh that would be a clear and direct expression of that direct knowing of one's true nature and so in the time that we're living in all over the world uh uh many human beings are trying are striving to do that or trying to do that and and all people who are on a spiritual path of one kind or another are endeavoring in their own ways and there many different ways to somehow live their life in such a way that that makes greater sense and uh and it's not an easy thing to do especially considering considering that we're living in a world where it seems that the majority of human beings that are living in this world do not seem to be all that concerned with matters of the heart and what seems to be far more important to to most people are are are other things indeed so so all spiritual questions in the end boil down to these two fundamental questions which is who am I and how should I live and so I just as a very brief introduction I just wanted to say that because uh because I can because in recognizing that or understanding that it can really help our own uh inquiry a great deal you see because it's very when one Ventures into spiritual life and begins to try and understand some very subtle matters and subtle issues it it it can be be quite intim intimidating and quite confusing it all seems so vast and so complicated and when one looks into the uh the teachings of Buddhism the teachings are so vast and so deep and profound and when one looks into the teachings of Hinduism uh one finds the same thing and one looks into Judaism for example uh one has the very same Discovery and it can get very confusing one begins to ask oneself well who's right so if we can begin begin to understand that they're fundamentally two basic questions that each and every one of us needs to really um look into and try and uh look into in a very serious way in order to liberate ourselves in a way that is that is profound and truly absolute it can help us in our own in our own investigation okay so I'm I'm ready to begin then yes yes if you could try and speak up maybe so everybody can can hear you also in the back what is Enlightenment what is Enlightenment is that been one it's a question that's been troubling you for a long time it has okay well it's a very uh it's a very difficult question it's something I'm I'm still trying to understand um but there's many there's many different ways it can can be understood uh and one so there many metaphors for what enlightenment means and what it's supposed to mean so one one metaphor would be the end of seeking okay so it would be moving from a condition in which the individual was convinced that there was fundamentally something wrong right to right to to the realization and discovery of the fact that there was nothing wrong now in this sense I'm not speaking about in a relative sense I'm not saying that I'm not saying that that relatively speaking there isn't quite a great deal that's wrong but I'm speaking about existentially I'm speaking at I'm speaking about our deepest conviction in relationship to our deepest sense of self right it's fundamentally one way or the other for most human beings are are are very preoccupied with a sense a belief and a conviction of the deepest in the deepest part of themselves that there is something wrong you see and the the individual the the rare individual who has had the Good Fortune to attain what is called Enlightenment would be an individual who has realized and discovered at the deepest in the deepest part of themselves that in fact there never was anything wrong now now why this is very important there's many reasons why this is very important but one way to understand why it's very important is because these these fundamental convictions that we have about our our own experience whether there's something wrong or not are filters because this is this is a this is what's called a primary conviction or a fundamental belief so if we're convinced there's something wrong as we uh as we perceive our own experience and draw conclusions about our own experience if we are fundamentally or primarily con or primarily convinced that there's something wrong before anything else there will what before anything else what what would be apparent to us is that there's something wrong so for example it'll be there's something wrong and it's a beautiful day there's something wrong and you know I'm hungry there's something wrong and you know I feel like meditating there's something this kind of thing okay uh and this this fundamental belief or conviction that there's something wrong that something is wrong tends to not tends to most definitely does influence the way we interpret our experience okay now for someone who has realized that there's nothing wrong there there is no there's no this fundamental or primary conviction you see is no longer uh is no longer uh acting as a filter to one's own experience right and one is able to experience life and and experience life in a way that is very direct and free from preconceived and fixed Notions in this case this fundamental notion that something is wrong okay and and also if we look very deeply into the nature of the human personality uh when when we meet a rare individual who is said you know to be enlightened because it's obviously a mysterious subject anyway it's very hard to understand but somebody who who would possess a certain kind of rare um rare qualities there's there's they they quite often there's a sense of of of presence right there's a sense of presence and of immediacy and and and individuals like that like that possess the ability to the ability to to appear to be undistracted in a way that's quite unusual in a way that stands out and the reason for this is because this individual is not distracted by any fundamental idea that anything is wrong you see and this this is is what enables them to be fully present and also because they're not convinced that anything is fundamentally wrong The Telltale you know um fragrance you know of neurosis or mental illness which is fear you know and ignorance and self- preoccupation and such an individual uh would would tend to not be present you see because because of the fact that they're not preoccupied with the sense that anything is wrong and this is what tends to make individuals like this quite a attractive to to many people of course who are convinced you know of something the opposite of something very much is wrong so that's one way to understand what enlightenment is it would be uh that that an individual had that the individual was no longer convinced that there was anything wrong uh another way to understand what uh what enlightenment would be about would be that when an individual has found found a way to to liberate themselves from preconceived notions of self right for from fixed Notions of self and in this case that there's something wrong but of course there's others uh the individual discovers uh um a certain quality or or um of being it's a it can be called Radiance a certain kind of Radiance or um uh Transcendent and transparent uh Essence uh in which right in which through which and because of which the individual is able to to to see and to know very deeply what is true and the this this this quality or this enlightened quality um is is depth it's it's it's it's profound and extraordinary depth of being in depth of knowledge of of life and of being and it uh and it's quite extraordinary uh only because it's so uncommon you know as as is said you know in certain schools of Buddhism that everyone is enlightened they just don't know it uh this uh so this this quality or this Essence that I'm speaking about is is present in in each in each and every in this case human being but because of the fact that most people are so distracted by this Con by this conviction that there's something wrong and by many other things that this this quality or this essence or this Radiance that uh that I'm speaking about is usually uh the most individuals are unaware of it and and it uh and because of that uh the quality of the life that they that they live and the kind of parameters that they live within tend to be very narrow and and the the uh the quality and the parameters of the life of of a so-called enlightened individual would be quite vast whether whether the individual would seem to move you know move you know physically move about or whether they stayed in one place it really wouldn't make any difference but the same quality would be present another question leads on from that is another question from that leads on from that okay um I sort of in with a little bit of a story that which might help to understand can everybody hear louder you can you can you can look at me shout um cuz it's weird if you look at them because you're not actually asking to them um a follow on question you said that you arrive at a point where you no longer ask the question of of yourself right um in other words your ego if you like is um whatever he said that one arrives at a point where one's no longer asking oneself this question that if one was to be successful in this endeavor of seeking one's own Liberation then it's possible yes to get to the point where one would no longer have to ask oneself who one was because one would have found the answer right at that point at that point yeah um if you're like you have now each of us is following all their lives and many dharmas if you like following that still Small Voice which is is crying out and saying I want fulfillment I want happiness and we've followed and we've used our ego and our identity ofself to get all of that distance along that path right and then there is a point where the only way to go further is to rid yourself of self right that's the idea okay so at that point you're standing at a huge precipice that's right and you jump off that's the idea how do you jump huh the question well if you were I know but if you were standing here and I said jump and you and then you said well how do I do it or you if someone ask you how do you do you just say just do it if you're standing at a precipice if one is literally standing at a precipice the question how do I jump does not arise in the mind of course but if one is not standing at the Press if you're standing a thousand away from the precipice right there's no and if and It Go a th000 miles away there is no precipice there's just flat land in all the four directions so some so from a that kind of place one could say well how can I jump because there is no way to jump you say well first you have to go to the precipice see first you have to go to the precipice right and how does one you know get to the precipice is by becoming very very serious about spiritual life and becoming very very serious for example about the two questions that I brought up today which was you know the question of who am I and the second question of how shall I live and so so by as one begins to ask oneself those questions in a very sincere way and a sincere way means that one begins to feel or that one's life actually depends upon the answer so it's not it's no longer a casual matter it's not just about reading a few interesting spiritual books or enlightening books but when actually begins to feel at a very deep emotional level that one's entire existence uh very much depends on uh one's ability to find out the answers to those questions you see one it it becomes a sense of a matter of great urgency so as so so when one begins to discover this this urgency in relationship to these questions one starts walking towards the precipice the the discovery of genuine urgency for Liberation or of a genuine desire for Liberation is is a metaphor for walking towards that precipice and if one doesn't stop because most people Ser they do they most Seekers ask themselves these kinds of questions at one time or another and they start walking towards their precipice but most tend to get distracted along the way you know by many things you know they might meet you know by By Sex You Know by by money by memory by fear by craving for material um happiness and so you know and so forth these are just the perennial distractions but an individual who's very genuine recognizes those distractions for what they are and even if they may tend to slow even if they may slow down or temporarily get distracted they will not stop because they know they're very survival depends on it this is a rare individual you see and then then one and and then one actually gets to a point where you can see the precipice because when you get to the point that when you can actually see the precipice you can Fe you can automatically feel uh some kind of magnetic pull or current that's pulling you actually you know to to Step Beyond it and it's in a moment like it's the times like that when when an individual begins to recognize that that that this is for real that that the things that they've read about in spiritual books you know that great Masters have written about and and things that they've heard about but never believed are actually true because they can feel the intimations of their own death and they can they can begin to feel the intimations of no limitation of be of beginningless and endless space right and they they can begin to feel the potential of their own dissolution they feel it emotionally they feel it intellectually they start to feel all their ideas start starting to shake they're starting to experience all this pressure on all their fixed ideas they're starting to feel a certain kind of pressure also on the on on the way they live and a very casual and sloppy relationship to to the way to the way one is living one begins to feel a certain pressure and you know and as one gets closer and closer to that press this one begins to recognize and directly recognize and discover how real this is that this is not this is not imagination this not fantasy it's not some opium for the masses or anything like that but it's the real thing and then of course one has to ask oneself at a time like that well now that you know now that I see how real this is am I am I as interested as I thought I was because most people at that point begin to realize how ambivalent they are they experience all fear tremendous fear tremendous doubt self-doubt you see because in the face of that which is so vast which is so big so extraordinary you see they you know they they they begin to see how puny how small how irrelevant they've always been and this this is this is crushing for the for the intellect and for the for the ego and for all the false Notions of self it's un it's emotionally and intellectually a crushing Revelation absolutely terrifying and Etc so so if one continues to persevere in spite of all that then one actually gets there and at that and and in a place like a moment like that at a time like that and a place like that there's no the question of how doesn't doesn't arise there's just at that point it's just there it's just like a it's an it's a it's a it's it's just an immense and Indescribable letting go and leaping into a a vastness from which there there's there's no return and there is there's no there's no way to find oneself or locate oneself but isn't that when you find the wholeness of of isn't that when when finds the who am I yes that's that's when you find the answer that's when you really that's when you f that's when you find it in a way that's final but along the way there along the way that you can get glimpses of it you can get glimpses because as you get closer and closer to that precipice as I said before the you begin to feel what what's on the other side of that precipice I said it's a magnetic current it's pulling one so as one's moving towards that precipice and as one is is is allowing more and more of all of one's attention to be preoccupied with that precipice you see then one will get glimpses of the answer to this question you see but the glimpses of the answer to the question are are in no way a final answer but there they are direct Revelations and direct momentary glimpses or insights that that are kind of moments of spiritual affirmation or spiritual confirmation yes this is really true you see when one one then has has a a sense of conviction but but even even in spite of those moments one is still pray to doubt you see because in spite of the fact that one has tasted something you know the person usually is still experiences doubt and and under the weight of the arising of doubt the individual is still is not sure that this it's all it's all is this all my imagination or is it real you see and then one you know and then again one becomes more subject to to to all sorts of Temptations and this is on and on and on it goes but in the way we're speaking about it today that leaping off this Cliff means this this is a a point of no return and it's a point where doubt has been conquered forever some people one second some people M mistake those glimpses along the way for that final leap and they're not the same thing because that final leap very few people get to that precipice actually you see scary yes it is it is it is very scary and well the reason it's very scary is because because that you know as one approaches that precipice it becomes uh painfully obvious that one has nothing to gain from this and everything to lose you see because a lot of people hear this word Enlightenment and they say it's great you know it just sounds like it just sounds like a great thing to have you know I'll feel good all the they think I'll feel good all the time and I will be happy all the time and uh everybody will love me and I'll you know it's like be Christmas morning all the time but as as one approaches that precipice one realizes that one has nothing to gain and everything to lose and nothing to gain and everything to lose and the closer one gets to that precipice and indeed if one dares to fall off it one will absolutely lose everything and everything that one thought one was and everything that one thought one had will all have to be left there because you can't take anything with you over that over that that precipice and and and that's when the individual begins to recognize realize and discover you know over and over again how real how shockingly real it is how shockingly real and uh yeah and that it's not a game and it's it's not it's not about feeling necessarily just about being happy or feeling good it's about ego death which is not uh which is not a game yes hello hi um I had two questions actually first of do you speak up so everybody can hear do you uh do you formal meditation practice within your teaching uh and if so could you define meditation well I I believe that the formal practice of meditation is very helpful for an individual who is convinced that they want to be free so what that means is that um many people meditate these days many people it's very it's very common you know I mean in the West for example for someone to all kinds of people meditate these days people people meditate who have not the slightest interest in spiritual matters you know people who are fundamentally only interested in sex and money and power you see you know may uh uh May meditate every day so it's not like 20 or 30 years ago when meditation was this kind of bizarre Eastern you know thing that some strange or odd people do but it's a very common thing so so I think that the fact that someone u meditates in and of itself does not necessarily mean that the in individual has any genuine spiritual interest or let alone any desire for Liberation okay but that being said if an individual has already discovered a genuine desire for Liberation in this life and then the formal practice of meditation which is uh which really is a metaphor for just for for paying attention in a in a way that one does not ordinarily do can be very helpful very very very helpful indeed and so I encourage I encourage my students to meditate every day because they have claimed at least they've claimed that they're more that they're more interested in Liberation than anything else whether it's true or not is another story but but that's how I see it so so in in a sense I think that meditation can be a very powerful um a very powerful uh experience for someone who has a genuine interest in discovering real depth and and and and if someone has already discovered that interest its practice can be helpful but but if one if one isn't very serious about it one can meditate a great deal and it not necessarily have any profound effect or influence on them uh do you have the time and would it be appropriate for you to just describe them your meditation uh because there's obviously various different types some that would be concentrated and some that that are not uh yeah it's very simple the the meditation practice that I that I prescribe is is very simple and it it it's just the it's really the practice of a of a paradox which is to to relax as much as possible you see to relax as one as much as as as possible while uh paying by by while at the same time paying the greatest attention that one is capable of and the reason why it's a paradox is because usually when one when an individual pays great attention they become tense there's a certain amount of tension and anxiety when one's paying a great deal of attention right and at the same time when one is told to relax as much as possible it usually means that one actually is heading towards sleep okay so the So the instructions to to pay to relax as much as as possible while at the same time to pay attention as much as one is humanly capable of is when understood is actually a paradox and it's something that one really has to uh look into learn about and try and understand through practice but but even more than that those instructions really are are ultimately a metaphor for the enlightened condition of itself because if an individual was no longer convinced there was something wrong in the deepest sense of the word in relationship to oneself you see then uh then one would deeply be free from anxiety you see because there something wrong there's something wrong there's something wrong you see this one would have be been liberated from this kind of fundamental conviction and so when there's a sense of nothing wrong one is in it very deeply at peace okay number one and number two because one is not because each of us each and every human being only has a certain amount of attention you see we're not we're not we don't all have an unlimited amount of of attention you see uh so so when a significant means when a significant portion of the limited amount of attention we have is distracted by a very fixed notion that something is wrong uh this is this this is uh this is what it means to be unconscious this is why people keep falling all over themselves keep making the same mistakes and keep feeling that out of control in a very negative way and keep feeling out of place and that they feel so far away from the center of existence and the and the reason for all this is because they're so distracted by the sense that something is wrong now on the other hand when an individual is no longer distracted by this sense of this idea or belief that something is wrong then their attention becomes their attention itself becomes liberated you see the attention itself becomes liberated and that person uh one Mark or one mark of the expression of a a quality of a person like that is that they're aware in a way that is remarkable and unusual and extraordinary and they Dem and if someone is truly awake then that that's that's something that would be demonstrated with unusual consistency so the meditation instructions then up to up to relax and to pay attention is really a metaphor for Liberation itself hello yes um could you speak about your personal experiences in uh jumping off the precipice so to speak well actually um usually when I teach these days I try not I I prefer not to speak too much about that I pr much pre prefer to speak about the teaching itself because I feel uh the minute I start speaking about my own experience what happens to most people I me you might be an exception but what happen and it's very understandable is that suddenly all the attention gets focused on me personally and I feel that while it may be a very interesting story uh what I since I only have a very brief amount of time here with all of you I'd rather just speak about the teachings which just have equally to do with all of us simultaneously and if you are interested I've actually written a short book about it you want you want to keep going okay let's can everybody everybody here speak up along the same lines but in a different mode I would feel that devotion and and the Heart devotion and the Heart yeah once at that precius right devotion in heart of that precipice yeah are the tools that you you enable you to let go of the ego and and which you use to to step forward is that it doesn't work that way it doesn't work that way and let's use a mundane example for example for uh let's say you fall in love in let's say you fall in love with someone right let's say you fall deeply in love right so is is that experience of falling in love do you then use it as a vehicle to do something or do you find that you're at its Mercy usually what happens is when when a human being falls in love with another they find themselves at the mercy of this of this feeling they find themselves at the mercy of this kind of love and Devotion to this other they find themselves helplessly lost you see in this attraction to you know to the other and they find that their you know their mind even and you know and all of its uh warnings you know just cannot stop the intensity of this of this of the explosion of the heart which is just calling one to you know to just embrace the other and just forget about everything forget about work friends you know family money whatever Ian if one it's really if it's really like a Romeo and Juliet you know kind of you know the real thing no the real that no no wait I'm using romance here as a metaphor all right so it's so then you you don't care about anything else you don't care about anything else in the same way in the same way when one's heart begins to explode with the love of Truth you see in the same way that at times like that one just feels pulled compelled choicelessly compelled to respond choicelessly uh compelled to respond in what way to let go of any obstruction you see because one's heart's bursting so at that point one emotionally is so convinced you know one one one say I have no choice I have no choice I have no choice and so there may be very clear and reasonable objections from one's own mind or from the mind of the other from friend family or whoever it is say but this is crazy but I I but I have no choice you see what I'm saying so so in a sense that when the heart explodes in that way it's not a matter of that that one uses it because it's it's a wrong way to understand it one one actually um is beginning to real and to realize and discover having no choice choicelessness it's submission surrender it's being swept away and it's a it's it's it's the greatest thrill and it's also very terrifying but it's it's not something one cannot use in that sense devotion in that sense one becomes its victim in some paths you know in some traditional religions you know also one is encouraged to cultivate devotion and and you know through the intellect and then to use it with the mind but I actually don't don't really think it works that way get out of control no I no I just don't think it brings you to that point if you just to cultivate it you can't cultivate romance with your mind either you fall in love or you don't hello hello hello yes please huh you talked about distractions on the road toes right how how does one stay focused how does how does one stay focused and free from distraction well it's a very difficult thing the way the way one does is by cultivating a very clear intention so for example uh like anything else in life if one wanted to to become successful at something that was very difficult very difficult that which was something that was very very demanding one would one would have to begin to give up other things because one would have to devote so much attention to it then that even for there to be any hope that one would be able to get anywhere near succeeding one would have to give up many many other things that would distract one you see so it's this this is not different because but but but that being said I feel that that liberating oneself from ignorance it's the greatest challenge that there is and most Seekers underestimate how uh how how big the the the how big it really is and how great a demand it is so so I feel like the very beginning what I always encourage people to do is to cultivate a very clear intention and the way one does that is by really asking oneself well what's the most important thing in life because we can say that everything is not of equal equal importance some things are more important than others you see but the way a lot of people live it you you you can actually tell what's the most important thing for a person just by looking observing the way they live their life you see and most people are very fickle so now this is important now that's important you know sometimes the you know sometimes the Romantic part of one's life is more important than another time you know one's career and ambition and all the rest of it it just back but um so so as one cultivates this this very clear intention for Spiritual salvation for for for Liberation from ignorance then one begins to look very deeply into these questions that I brought up at the beginning of of the the evening tonight which was who am I and how shall I live what is that way to live that makes the most sense and as one continues to pursue these questions just simply through pursuing these question one begins to discover how how ignorant one has been how how how that one has been living one's life and responding to one's life in a in a way that is very gross right that in a way that in a way that expresses uh uh um ignorance and and foolishness you see what I'm saying and one is discovering this through one's own experience simply as a result of playing paying greater attention to these questions of really looking what know what is most important and what are the answers to these questions who am I really and what it really is the most important way to live and as one continues to pursue these questions answers do begin to come I mean necessarily ultimate or final answers right away or anything but answers do begin to come and as those answers begin to come it pretty soon it becomes apparent what these obstacles are I say well if I'm very sincere about this then I have to be I have to be willing to dedicate myself in a very in a very sincere way to this and if I do that means that these certain other areas of my life of my life will be impacted by this is this something that's okay you know and then one has to ask oneself yet again well how important is this to me is it more important than anything else or is this just a hobby because of course you know genuine seeking if it's just a hobby you know will will not bring us to Liberation it might it might make our life a little bit more interesting but it won't it won't bring us to Liberation in any shape or form so as one begins to look very deeply into these questions and and really asking oneself this question of what's more important than anything else what these distractions are and how they and and what the impact that these distractions have on the way we live and on our life and on our spiritual desires um begin to reveal themselves by themselves and that's and and when they begin to reveal themselves that's when we begin to see how attached we are to a way of life that is an expression of ignorance and not Liberation because ultimately and finally you know using the metaphor that we used earlier you know in the evening which is that Cliff finally we have to realize that uh you know as a a great a great teacher you know who I I was just spent some time with in India said he said when you come into this world you didn't own anything and you didn't bring anything with you and when you leave this world you right you can't own it right when you you know when you leave you have to leave everything behind and you can't take anything with you so he was saying how how odd it was how strange how bizarre how crazy that in this interim this brief interim period how how people you know got got these grandio ideas of what they own you understand what I'm saying so as we approach that preface is jumping off that precipice you know is a metaphor for dissolution or dying into the Eternal fact you see of nothing nothingness you see no no buiness emptiness and so so if one is because Liberation here being a metaphor for that that jumping off that Cliff then one has to begin to very consciously using one's own Keen intellect in a very sincere way begin to look into what is what does it mean to own nothing to have nothing you see what does it really mean and then of course if you ask yourself those questions in a very serious way those answers are going to come and the minute those answers come you will simultaneously see how attached one is to be to being this to being that to having this and to having that and as these things become apparent then then we have them you know then through as a as as a result of this investigation one one can ask can ask oneself well now I see I see in a much clearer way you know what I'm doing here do I want to continue to to be living in the way that I'm living or do I want do I or do I want to move on and and be able to live in such a way that expresses this much deeper truth so so so one finds out the what these uh these distractions are and what these obstacles are simply through cultivating a very a very a very deep and sincere intention to liberate oneself and but and through pursuing these questions in a genuine way what those obstacles and distractions are reveal themselves and then and then and then one has you know quite a lot on one's you know what one has to deal with face and let go of you know then then becomes very apparent and what one discovers is nothing new you can read this in all the great spiritual literature from the East you know and the great Traditions you Christian and Judaism it's all in there you know these questions and their answers are are their fundamental and perennial questions that transcend uh ultimately you know east or west and uh and and when the thing is that and when one really looks very deeply inside oneself you know we see how Universal is this is this whole movement towards Liberation so then when anybody you know including you begin to feel touched and moved to ask ones these questions that is a moment that hundreds of millions of human beings have come to before you and even that that same moment of oh my God maybe there's something more and this calling to respond it's it's it's a is like it's an evolutionary movement a moment of evolution that's expressing itself inside you it's happened hundreds of millions of times before you see and it when you see how big that is and ultimately how small one is in the face of that kind of Discovery you know it's it's very shocking and also very inspiring so I think we'll go a little bit longer and then we can maybe meditate for a few minutes together yes sir sure if I know who I am is it the tool to get free from the three roots of suffering cre and delusion or is it a different approach I'm sorry I could yes sir sure if I know who I am is it a to to get free from the three roots of suffering created and delusion or is it a different approach I'm sorry I didn't quite get if you if you find out the answer who I am yes is this the tool to to get free from GRE ha and delusion absolutely absolutely yes actually the best tool or the most skillful whenever yeah what whatever works you see because I was personally people say well my path is you know I'm I'm a Buddhist you know I'm a theravadan Buddhist or I'm a Mahayana Buddhist or I'm a Sufi or I'm a Jew I don't really care the only thing I'm I'm concerned about and interested in is what are the results the result is the only is the result is what determines the result is sorry is the only thing that's important so the question is uh so the question then I feel is to be very to to become very concerned with Liberation itself and much less so with this path or that path because what we want to be concerned with which is is becoming successful in liberating ourselves in this life which is quite a big thing it's not a small thing it's a big thing why because obviously very few people actually do succeed so so that would prove that it's EI that it's a very big thing and and and and part of the reason that so few people succeed is very few people are are very serious about about it you know very few people are very serious about it because I do believe that those who are deadly serious about this do actually succeed so yes sir you know it the the main thing is is is to become very pre preoccupied with Liberation itself and and and to to cultivate and realize and discover that urgency within oneself that would that would release you know this this passion and this great energy to do anything that it would take to succeed for example if my Approach is to cut off the roots of GRE and delusion yes is it also possible to understand myself who I am well well finally finally no of course sir but if you cut off if you if you would yes but if you would if you would come to the end of the the if you would come to the end of greed hatred and delusion within yourself what would be left something good yeah but it would have to something very wholesome right yeah yeah yeah yes sir hello yes please um I you say about Enlightenment you do what you call Li um are you satisfied of what you have like you I don't quite understand are you to Define am I satisfied yeah of you ened and you no I'm not satisfied no I'm not satisfied I'm only beginning but I'm not seeking for myself anymore if I was seeking for myself how could I help everybody because if I was seeking for myself then I would be very distracted about me and I can only help people if I'm not distracted by me okay hello yes please in yes so I'm not sure I understand I just want to check sure sure it is Liberation then becoming aware that I'm ignorant or is it or is it that's part of it or is it that I'm eradicating each step of ignorance as I go both it's both it's is both simultaneously ultimately they're the same thing thing right because you see sir as you as you become you see it's two things happen simultaneously as you become aware of how simple It All Is Right how how simple it is and how utterly obvious it all is you see you also become aware of how complex it is and how delicate it is you see what I'm saying at the same at the very same time you see see so I wonder then can I be certain that I'm ever liberated from ignorance itself if I'm progressing in understanding of my ignorance yes you can of course you can you you can you can become certain because you you can become aware by uh by by observing where you you see because as we act and as we respond there's certain things that motivate us right there there are certain qual there's certain things that motivate us you know but what motivates most people is greed and selfishness and lust right and hatred maybe also sometimes Love sometimes compassion sometimes generosity right but let's be you know honest right so now those kind of actions have certain kinds of results now if you have been living in a certain way where most of your actions have been motivated motivated by selfishness and lust and G greed and ambition right you're going to and you're going to see you'll be you will be you will that will be uh you will have become habituated you'll be sorry you'll be used to that and you you'll become used to the kind of results but when you begin to see certain kinds of responses coming out of yourself that are the opposite of selfishness and greed and ambition and lust you see that come from a place that you cannot locate with your mind but you know without any doubt is your is your truth true self you see you can't even right and then you and then even beyond that you begin to observe that the results that the the results of the actions that the consequences of the actions that result when you when when when motivation comes from that place is entirely different then you begin to see well this is this is like heaven and hell it's two completely different ways of being ways of responding and the consequences are literally Heaven and Hell also so you so the differences between those two for someone who's very sincere and very serious and paying great attention are very clear become very obvious and when you'd come to the point when your whole when your whole life becomes an expression of heaven and not of hell you mean it's it's going to be so you wouldn't even if you wanted to avoid it you wouldn't be able to because it would would be everywhere so the answer is yes it's possible to know if it wasn't if it wouldn't be possible to know I mean there wouldn't be any way out would there but on the other hand you know but that being said on the other hand the the the movement the movement of evolution or the movement you know of uh of of of Liberation and Enlightenment is a movement you know internally from from the gross to the subtle it's a movement from from from gross from experiencing life and interpreting our own experience in a way that is very gross and unrefined to a way that becomes gradually more subtle and more refined and more subtle and more refined until such a point that the individual becomes established permanently established in in in in in great subtlety of of experience and interpretation of experience yes so there's a great difference between the two yes you would know the difference you just may take my you would know the difference it's it's it's very obvious it's very it's very very obvious okay just I'm sorry who was that yes hi okay hi I just wanted to ask so Enlightenment according to you is understanding the truth or is it some kind of an experience that same thing you can't understand you can't understand something that you don't know from your own experience right we can't truly understand something that we don't know from our own experience so for example we could become a great scholar we could study you know a great deal of what of what the great Masters have said about their own experience but but all we would know was was about their experience and ultimately you see there's only one of us ultimately there's only one and so if we penetrate very deeply into our own experience you see we're going to discover that we're going to discover that one experience that all the great realizers throughout history have discovered also and then we'll recognize will recognize ourselves in them you see and then shocking it's a shocking uh a shocking uh moment and then and then this is a this comes from direct knowledge and is not abstract or intellectual but it's it's possible to um to gather a tremendous amount of information about this subject and to become uh quite knowledgeable about it but it doesn't in the end mean we're going to know anything because we can know a lot int ually about this but and and and still remain as ignorant and as caught as ever you see what I'm saying all right hello yes please hi at the beginning of your talk you said something about um like you you reach Enlightenment when you realize that nothing is wrong you said something about realiz nothing is wrong yes I said in the deepest part of on I would I and I said at the time I said this does not mean that relatively speaking that there's nothing wrong I mean all we have to do is just look look a little bit around this miserable human world we're living in we can see that so much is wrong so I'm so I'm not saying that relatively speaking nothing is wrong but we're saying in the deepest existential sense in in relationship to our own personal notion of who we are you see in that sense yes there's the realization discovery that nothing has ever been wrong then do you think that you know things like lust and desire and and greed areen are they're a part of us but you think they're not I mean do you think they are wrong or do you not think they're wrong because they uh no well in and of themselves you have to in in and of themsel you know just like for example you know just to talk about lust in this case in and of itself it's this is an impersonal uh Force you know in this in this case sexual craving and it's it to to say that there was something wrong with it or that it was inherently evil you know it would is an is is an expression of ignorance and a great many of the you know religions of the world today seem to be lost in a very in a very have a very ignorant relationship to this but this is a very in this sense it's a very primordial drive it's it's the force of evolution literally that we experience within our bodies but the difficulty the diffic but because it's such a powerful force and because it's so strong and because it has quite a profound effect on the mind you see because under the influence of lust our mind begins to uh interpret our experience in in certain way ways that it doesn't ordinarily and it and it can therefore if if our discrimination is not very keen you see we we we might end up doing things that would create karma for ourselves so there's nothing inherently wrong there's nothing good or bad about the experience of sexual craving in and of itself but our relationship to it is all important so the Rel so we can say that for many human beings they relationship to this overwhelming uh evolutionary Force they experience within their own bodies is uh is a confusion and ambivalence and and and in the lives of most human beings create an enormous amount of karma because of being confused around this very very powerful drive and and many many and many spiritual teachers also I don't know if you know much about the modern spiritual world but many spiritual teachers are supposed to be enlightened have a lot of trouble with this question also so it's it's a very difficult and Powerful uh um uh force that needs to be understood if we want to be free and What What In this case what being free means is that we know what we're doing and we know why we're doing it we didn't it's not like something happened and we didn't know how it happened like Consciousness or something what you know yeah yeah sure okay yeah yeah it's sure because that means that we know what that means we know what we're doing so then a a choice is made through a choice is made very consciously and very deliberately you see so you're talking about um getting rid of the confusion that a lot of these things bring up yes and then and then once you get rid of the confusion you don't think it's wrong you you wouldn't say that that would no be realizing that it's not wrong well it's not right or wrong it just is well right but you were saying that but our relationship to it could be right or wrong because of the consequences because for some for some person you know well I experience lust I might you know what's wrong with raping you know somebody because they just feel this overwhelming desire to do that to have that person right now and also if you take lust a little further you know if lust in then is also part of violence when people speak about what happens to them in the midst of War a certain kind of blood lust takes over that is that is not different ultimately from sexual lust you see it's just a Lust For Destruction you know and so these because we are all evolved as a race many of these these part so these the these are uh we can we consider this part of our lower lower parts of ourselves and because we're trying part of evolution is coming to a very clear understanding of what these things are so that we will always be in control of ourselves and always be able to express free choice because because the consequences of allowing oursel to become unconscious are horrendous you know look at the world it's an expression of unconsciousness and ignorance and this so this is why we have to this is what it means to be awake so we know who we are we know what we're doing and this part of oursel also is something that we are aware of and that we are in in control of that it does not control US vice versa and it's a tall order but of course if we want to be free and if we want the consequences of our own actions to express Liberation then it's it's and it's essential that we find a way to come to terms with it okay last thing yes sir there is it I just wonder is it possible to become totally uh independent of ignorance is so is it possible to be totally liberated or totally that's the whole point what about the Buddha so if I if I reach that place yes then you're going to be then you then you will be you you'll be a sought after man I don't think the world the world will the world will be blessed by your mere presence and the mere fact that your feet walk on the earth will be possible for me well that's because you're cynical and I've written a little article for you here I actually had you in mind it's called cynicism the modern spiritual predicament and I'll give it to you after we're over but the point is I just and we'll finish with this the whole point is you have to understand for the ego or for the for the part of ourselves that is convinced you see of limitation right right the if we if we don't believe that it's possible you see we don't have to face into the overwhelming implications of it being possible because you see if we if we begin to accept the fact that it is possible it means we have to question everything but if we believe if we just sweep it away and say it's not possible we there's a lot we don't have to face and a lot we don't have to qu have to question and as a result of that in a sense the ego's let off the hook you see and this is why cynicism you see protects us it protects us it's like a a shield that protects us against the spiritual dimension of life you see of course it doesn't feel good I mean what cynicism doesn't one makes us feel bad but it also makes us feel kind of arrogantly Superior in a certain way in all those who would be so foolish just to believe something was possible and so we have to see how cynicism is like a is a protector for the the ego and one of the added benefit benefits is it helps you to feel even Superior to other people but when you when one removes that mask of cynicism and that wall of protection this is certainly great vulnerability because maybe even we whoever we are have to fade face into this greatest of greatest possibilities and all the overwhelming implications of doing so so maybe we if we could just sit quietly together for about 5 minutes it would be really great be great