Andrew Cohen in dialogue with John David - Satsang Open Sky House 2018

so I'm very happy welcome Andrew Cohen through the open sky how and we've already had a few hours together and we already feel like pals and that's the right word but it's very nice to have you here thank you with the diner and a pleasure to be with you and everyone thank you and I would say that the community would love to welcome you whenever you're traveling through Europe thank you so my god time to visit us you're always welcome that there was a room for you and thank you very happy to see very kind of you so I'm not quite sure how this is going to work out but I prepared a few quotations of Andrews from his website so he probably will probably recognize them and I'm sure he can unfold them for us and I think the one he probably would like to start with is to tell us something about evolutionary enlightenment you started to study with you started with a small question yeah the e start with the easy ones so he says here evolution enlightenment calls on us to awaken to both a timeless piece of being so I think we all know about that and the relentless passion of the evolutionary impulse so probably we're not so clear about that all eyes can see it everywhere I look I'll Ronnie okay you're kidding you look like you know quite a lot about it thank you okay I mean that there's another quote is there's only a couple of lines that goes with that one enlightenment is evolving is no longer found only in the bliss of timeless being it is found also in the aesthetic urgency of evolutionary becoming so I guess it's enough to promise your interaction so you what would you likely take I explained that yeah if you could unfold that a bit for us because I don't think we're really so aware about what you mean maybe we somehow understand it through our daily life but I don't think we know what your meaning about it okay so it might take a few minutes no you could have as long as you like okay so let's try and imagine and I want us all to be able to agree at the beginning on the fundamentals that would you agree that the sum total of everything that exists would include everything that doesn't exist and everything that does exist would you agree if we wanted to try and come come up with a an idea of the ultimate totality of everything that in in my way of thinking that would have to include everything that exists and everything that does not exist so do you agree that everything that exists and everything does that does not exist would it clip include the sum total of everything that existent doesn't exist could anything exists outside those two [Laughter] of course not you said I agree with you does everybody get it so we just want to get a picture so we want to get a picture of everything if it's possible with the mind so this is this is just an exercise it doesn't really what I'm saying doesn't really mean anything but we're working with we just working with concepts to kind of attempt to have some conversation about evolutionary enlightenment so we want to start with this basic agreement with it we want to get a picture of everything so the picture of everything would have to include the sum total of everything that exists and everything that doesn't exist everything that's manifest and everything is unmanifest so everybody agree that would do it that would cover everything and nothing did nothing known or unknown manifest drawn manifest could exist out of the sum total of everything that exists and everything that doesn't exist does everybody agree I can't if you don't say you agree I don't know if you agree or you just [Laughter] should I take that isn't it I think you can push on from that okay so then so then let's so then what we'll do is what we'll make a take a pick you're obviously very visually oriented here so imagine well let's draw a big circle and the circle represents the sum totality of everything that exists and everything that doesn't exist everything that exists and everything that doesn't exist exist inside the circle nothing that exists nothing that doesn't exist exist outside the circle okay we've all together so then what we want to do is draw a line through the middle of the circle so we have two halves and let's say on the left side of the circle is the unmanifest so the unmanifest is equals in spiritual metaphysical enlightenment language equals the ground of being timeless formless beginningless and endless nothingness emptiness and what we want to do is we want to important thing to remember here to keep in mind that this timeless formless beginningless and endless round of being was the empty zero point in no place or voidness from which the entire creative process emerged fourteen billion years ago there was a big explosion that was the beginning of time before the university existed before that initial explosion there was no time there was no space there was no form nothing existed it was complete voidness do you familiar with this idea before there was something there was nothing before there was before there was something there was nothing and every and everything that we could call something came from the nothing comes from the nothing is that clear so in in the traditional understanding of enlightenment in the understanding of enlightenment that Papaji or when I knew him he was before he was probably doing he was Bungie G what he revealed to me through His grace was this timeless formless beginningless and endless ground and he introduced it to me in a way that was very powerful I've never recovered changed my life so I thought I was trapped in my separate personality and then he opened up the doors to door to infinity and I walked through it I never came back as I'm sure the same thing happened to you I was with him only for three weeks happened very quickly so so in in in his presence it became possible to have a direct cognition a direct knowing of the infinite and in this case the infinite in my understanding means there with your direct Awakening to recognition and knowing direct knowing of this timeless formless beginningless and endless ground and this timeless formless beginningless and endless ground is the substratum or the foundation of all of reality because everything that exists in time and in space and in form has emerged from that empty void from the timeless formless no place so before the university existed there was nothing whatsoever before the university existed there was nothing whatsoever before the university existed there was nothing whatsoever that's why Bungie Jim will make the bold statement nothing ever existed unless this was a quote from the book we were you just gave Daniella so what that means that nothing ever existed means from the perspective or the vantage point of that timeless formless beginningless and endless temp t ground nothing ever happened because before there was time in space before the universe was before the universe was created nothing ever happened before the universe was created nothing ever happened you'd never been born your parents weren't born were never born the universe wasn't even a thought in the mind of God so before the universe was even a thought in the mind of God nothing existed so when we either went either through the grace of a great master like Howard loved Bungie G or Papa Qi either through his great the grace of someone this deeply realized or through our own meditative pursuits we're able to directly become conscious of this depth dimension isn't it's in depth dimension where we it's a non relative or absolute depth dimension in which we discovered limitless lists because time timelessness and formlessness are beginningless and endless so this kind of awakening is like falling into an infinite ocean of being that always exists before time before space before the universe was was even a thought in the mind of God that's why the unconditional freedom that we experience when we have that kind of Awakening is truly unimaginable because it precedes everything that ever has ever happened and everything that is going to continue to happen in the creative process so don't make sense so so in the in the traditional what I call anyway make these I make this this thing which would in a traditional enlightenment or in the inviting position it is said for the interpretation of this kind of experience is that the only thing that's real is that which is that which is never born in that which is never done ever dies so this timeless formless beginningless and endless ground is a place this is the deepest part of the self and the deepest part of reality itself and it's a place where nothing ever happens nothing happens nothing changes it's changeless and the buddha called this depth dimension the unborn or the deathless and to every part of you and me that is that has taken form and taken birth this the awakening to this depth dimension this but the buddha called the deathless on the unborn is experienced as an unimaginable source and inconceivable source of liberation from time from space from body from form and from mind right so when we have we draw this circle we realize who is that another hat we would this is this is just an arbitrary idea but we're drawing a circle thing the left side of the circle represents the step to mention that exists before the universe was created and as always the deepest dimension of reality and of the self if you dig deep at that dig down deep enough well that's where we're all going to end up that there's nowhere else to go so but we realize it's not the whole picture because it seems that 14 billion years ago there was this huge explosion and from from nothing whatsoever from timeless formless emptiness energy and matter appeared in a very dramatic way happened in an instant from nothing came everything and this is a very important thing to contemplate why did something come from nothing why did something come from nothing but something or everything came from nothing in an instant and initially what emerged was and matter and energy so matter and energy emerge from timeless form is emptiness in a very dramatic explosive way the creation of the universe is the most dramatic event that's ever happened and that is still happening right now we're all we are all products of that explosion in motion that had a beginning for about fourteen billion years ago so you and I each and every one of us and this beautiful is beautiful ashram of these beautiful paintings and all of our beautiful bodies and minds they're all part part and parcel of that explosion in motion at the beginning fourteen billion years ago so one thing we want to consider contemplate is the nature of the intensity through it in which this explosion does create this explosion into creativity of creativity happen with unimaginable intensity and force and the inconceivable mystery the inconceivable mystery is how he's not the inconceivable mystery is how did something come from nothing how do you expect um from nothing something can only come from stuffing something it can't come from nothing right so how did how did something come from nothing and secondarily why did something come from nothing they're two very important questions so so I have a medic I have a metaphysical meditation about it which I could take you to very quickly which is similar similar to things I've read in Vedanta so it's not what I'm saying I did have these thoughts but these are not are these are not original metaphysical ideas but but I want you to imagine for a moment that you are Brahman that you are God you were that timeless formless beginningless and endless being who was doing nothing whatsoever no thing whatsoever for eternity imagine imagine for a moment that you are Brahman and your God and that before the universe was created or before you decided to create the universe you had been doing absolutely nothing whatsoever for countless billions of eons of no time just imagine for just two just think about it for a couple of minutes what it would be like to do absolutely nothing nothing whatsoever for eternity countless billions of years of no time is eternity so imagine if you've been doing nothing forever and remember your God so or Brahman so if your God it means you're fearless and you're infinite you're you're fearless in your infinite that's your true nature so you who are fearless and infinite have been doing absolutely nothing whatsoever for countless billions of IANS of no time are you there whenever we go into very deep states of meditative bliss an emptiness that's the state of consciousness we enter into whether we are aware of it or not but imagine you imagine you were you were that and you had been doing absolutely nothing whatsoever for eternity and had been unbelievably quiet unbelievably quiet unbelievably quiet and conceivably quite unbelievably peaceful unimaginably peaceful overwhelmingly peaceful and blissful for eternity okay it's plausible that one fine day or whatever one fine no day that thought might arise in your no mind for no reason what maybe I maybe I should do something why not just a minute it remembers your fear god you're you're fearless and you're infinite so since you've been doing nothing for eternity it's conceivable that the thought or would arise when maybe I should do something and the question is why because it's been because the question is why not because if you regard you could do anything you wanted you could do nothing or you could do everything God has infinitely powerful and always free and fearless so this is just a metaphysical contemplation but imagine every every couple of hundred billion the ends of no time the thought would improve denote the the thought would appear in your no mind again maybe you should I should do something I've been doing nothing forever and then it would pass on and disappear into the emptiness and you wouldn't even move and this would go on and on billions of eons at no time would continue to pass in every one so no this fall would continue to appear and then it would start to appear we gain its own momentum and eventually it would start out of eventually on the very surface of your of the entry on the surface of the infinite surface of being itself would start to accumulate the creative impulse the creative impulse or the desire to do something would slowly build up and slowly build up creative tension and slowly build up creative tension slowly build up creative tension slowly build up creative tension until one by one fine day says should I shouldn't I shouldn't I should and I should I shouldn't and then you say okay but you have to remember your God so you're fearless and you're infinite so you have nothing to lose and you're indestructible you know you understand so that's that was the moment that was so from this is them this is a metaphysical this is an anthropomorphic metaphysical meditation on the creative process so that was the beginning and then energy and matter burst forth which started this unleash this incredibly powerful physical forces of matter and energy which took about ten billion years to great the conditions that made it possible for life to emerge ten billion years which in the mind of God is not a very long time it's a few moments really from a human point of view it's a very long time but from the mind of God it's not very long at all that took ten billion years to create the conditions in with life were in Lizabeth in which life would emerge and then life emerged from very simple single-celled organism to multi-celled organisms and in the complexity of life the complexity of the interior of the inferiority the capacity for interior T the capacity for interior art is the capacity for consciousness as life forms became more complex the capacity for interior T consciousness complexified and got deeper and deeper and we're going on a very quick journey here and then we end up around two hundred thousand years ago two hundred thousand years ago and a fourteen billion years Ernie is is like is like an hour ago so two hundred thousand years ago was the beginning of human culture and when human human culture started is traditionally when they did where was the emergence of mind if cut of cognition was you the using of symbols and then and then for the last two hundred thousand years if you the evolution of human culture the capacity of human consciousness and cognition is complexified and complexified and complexified and complexified and then around five thousand years ago four thousand years ago three thousand years ago there was these great these great realizes emerged like the Buddha Adi Shankara loud sooo and these others who had this awakening they discovered this the infinite ground this timeless formless beginningless and endless ground the source of infinity the source of timeless formless infinity of the existing for the universe was born this was the discovery of enlightenment it's only about between three and five thousand years ago that this discovery was made three to five thousand years ago on a fourteen billion year process is when is when conscious life forms discovered the infinite nature of their own interiors before that point as far as we know the universe had no way of knowing itself because for the universe to know itself it needs conscious sentient beings who can bear witness to the whole display god or Brahman doesn't exist as a separate being outside the creative process that he or she gave rise to God or Brahman is the energy and intelligence that gave rise to the creative process in the first place it is giving rise to the creative process right now I am and you are the energy and intelligence that created the universe in his career and is creating the universe awakening to itself awakening to itself through the body my personality of each and every one of us now what's fascinating about this is that the oh is that the awakening to enlightened awareness can only happen in a sense in a very complex engine being that has the capacity for self reflective awareness self reflective awareness emerges in very complex life formed which is which is which happens which means you know that you know you have a capacity to be aware of awareness so we all have the capacity to be aware of awareness aware of being aware dogs don't don't have the capacity to be aware of awareness in Zen Buddhism they say does the dog have Buddha nature Buddha nature is consciousness so there's a dog head Buddha nature the answer to the question is yes a dog has certain design master out to ask his disciple is a dog have buddha nature the answer to the question is yes the dog has good in a should his consciousness can a dog become enlightened the answer is no a dog can't become enlightened because the dog doesn't have self reflective awareness so enlightenment happens when consciousness or awareness recognizes itself everybody with me here when consciousness becomes self-aware consciousness becomes aware of consciousness that's the flash of enlightenment consciousness is timeless and formless beginningless and endless when consciousness becomes aware of itself in that awakening there's awake into into the infinite everybody well together the discovery of evolution is discovery of this discovery of evolution that the universe had a beginning fourteen billion years ago which led to this incredible creative process of energy and matter that led to life that eventually gave rise to mind and self reflective awareness this isn't understanding it's only about 60 150 years old this is a very recent discovery that were part of a creative process an evolutionary process that's making other made all this possible so could we all together so far but it submits oh so three to five thousand years ago human beings discovered the ID the ground of being that was the discovery of Shankar and Buddha and individuals of that level of realization and the discovery of evolution discovery of the creative process in all its glory is about 150 years old so this is very recent knowledge the miracle of being human especially human beings with a very high level of consciousness number a level of cognitive complexity we have the capacity to be able to awaken to these truths to bear witness to them and as we awake until them bear witness to them the energy and intelligence that created the universe bears witness to them at the same time now in evolutionary unlikely we make a very interesting distinction we go back to the circle we made it through speaking about at the beginning the experience of timeless formless beginningless and endless being is peace right when we were all sitting at dinner together tonight and when you some of you were sitting very quietly before we started having dinner and after the dinner everybody was sitting very quietly with her eyes closed and we could feel there was a vibration or current of peace so before the universe was created there was only peace before the universe was created there was only peace of before so when we when we like when we transcend mind we eventually transcend time we transcend mind in time and this is sinking into that eternal ground the experiencing which is peace itself the peace is the nature of the absolute as the timeless formless beginnings will ascend this ground of being but when there were that when there was that big leap from nothing to something from being to becoming when the universe was created that they leak took place that big explosion took place that would that was a creative leap into form and into life and into mind eventually so that creative leap feels very different now remember everything that's created everything that's manifest comes from the uncreated everything that's manifest comes from the unmanifest through the whole universe and everything in it including all of us comes from this timeless form as an empty ground so from a non dual perspective the world to form in the world of formula formlessness are one and not two right the world of form in the world the formlessness or one and not two is everybody understand that the uncreated and they created the unmanifest the manifests are all one and not two but the interesting the most interesting part of the equation is the world to form in the world the formlessness are one and not two but the world of form is evolving is going somewhere is moving to the world of form in the world of formlessness of one and not two but the world of form is in a creative process that's becoming more complex the world of form is complexify and becoming more conscious which is fascinating so we ask the question at the beginning how and why did something come from nothing how did something come from nothing why did something come from nothing but and and then the most amazing point of truth is into something that's come from nothing is is complexified because going somewhere is evolving and we are all products of that evolutionary process now if we go back to the circle once I would have being the other side we have becoming the unmanifest in the manifest the nature of being is peace because nothing ever happened and being nothing ever happened as was the exact quote from thunder master not nothing ever happened nothing ever happens to from the perspective of the timeless form of timeless form is ground of all being nothing ever happened but from the perspective of that bag big leap from nothing to something and being to becoming God apparently chose to create the universe so I but this is metaphysically this is very interesting because the ultimate truth which is I'm sure you're sharing with your students the ultimate truth is what it is only one right isn't that the ultimate truth in fact the ultimate truth is only one and not two isn't that true is it true so the ultimate truth is that there's only one in not to that see that's the non relative absolute truth that you and you and me and all of us are we appear to be many you appear to be a woman I appear to be a man John David appears to be English I appear to be American but in fact my sense of I John sense of I your sense of I your sense of I is all is actually the same I is the same I bearing witness to itself through the body mind form of John David to the body mind form of Andrew to the body mind form of each and every one of us that same I is bearing witness to itself right everybody get through everybody knows this so if there's only one eye in the universe which Vedanta tells us which advisor tells us there's only one eye in the universe everybody agree on that are you and you are you are that want you are that one eye are you not could you be anybody else so that means you are the only one that could have been the chose to create the universe you let it in if you agree there's only one eye and I would fully agree with that and would you agree with it if there's only one eye then that eye that was nothing chose to take that leap from nothing to something from being to be coming from formlessness to form and you are the only one there could have been that made that decision if there's only one if you if you are if you are spiritual metaphysical conviction is that the is that the ultimate truth is only one and that's who you really are then you're the one who chose to create the universe which if that's true and I believe it is to puts you in a very interesting predicament so so so God so God or Brahman feels like as being God a Brahman feels like peace the feeling of peace the feeling of being the feeling of being is peace this is what you're sharing with your students right the feeling of being is peace peace through chanting all my dinner home is the vibration of being the feeling of being is what peace John Dee Chandi John T the nature of biggest piece the feeling of biggest piece so what's the name so what's the nature of God or Brahman as he or she took that leap from nothing to something from being and becoming from formlessness to form because remember when the universe was created it wasn't peace though it was explosive the creative impulse or we could call it the evolutionary impulse the creative impulse in the evolutionary impulse doesn't feel peaceful what does it feel like so what is it what what is the what is the creative impulse feel like where did the creative impulse feel like where did the creative impulse come from it came from God from Brahman Brahma is the only one of critic who could have created the universe right God's the only only one who could have created the universe so what does the creative impulse what is the guide impulse as the creative impulse feel like it feels like ecstasy an urgency ecstatic urgency is the nature of God as the creative impulse or as the evolutionary impulse how do I know very simple we can all locate the energy intelligence that created the universe if we look into our own human experience and three there's three fundamental levels we can discover it the first level is through the sexual impulse which is the biological command to procreate the biological command to procreate is the evolutionary impulse our creative impulse which is the sexual impulse but it's a biological command because when you feel the vibration and the pulsation of the evolutionary impulse as the biological command to procreate what does it feel like it feels like ecstasy inner urgency right hello do you agree for men initially it feels more urgent and for women but women feel the urgency in time also right so so what you hope so we hope we hope so but the fundamental point I'm trying to make is that the nature of the evolutionary impulse with the creative impulse at the lowest level which is the biological level is has a particular there's a particular feeling quality the feeling qualities ecstatic urgency ecstasy and urgency everybody agree and I would I and what's important to understand what's important to understand is that what would what I'm trying to what I'm trying to clarify here is the nature of God the nature of Brahman as the unmanifest versus as the manifest so the nature of God as in his or her unmanifest form his peace the feeling of being the nature feeling of God is the evolutionary impulse our creative force in the universe is the evolutionary impulse they need the feeling quality of God is his ecstatic urgency so the first place we located what I wanted to say was when you experience the vibration of pulsation of the biological command to procreate of the sexual impulse that's the same energy and intelligence it cause something to come from nothing that compelled the universe to come into existence do you understand that that the same energy intelligence that compelled the universe to come into existence and it's compelling it into existence right now we all can directly locate when we experience the vibration pulsation of the biological command abroad created the evolutionary impulses of sexual impulse there very clear fascinating right so when you experience the sexual impulse it's the same energy intelligence that created the universe is creating the universe compels universe to exist but at a much higher level we notice that human beings are the only sentient life-forms that exist in the universe that are compelled to innovate and give rise to that which is new there's no other life form that exists on the earth and as far as we know in the universe so far it might change that is compelled and driven ecstatically compelled to innovate it to give rise to that which is new it compelled to innovate give rise to that which is new so if you've ever met a creative genius in the field of art art you're such a creative community so creative art science music philosophy literature law whatever it is if you ever meet a creative genius in any field in any field the genius the creative genius whether they're an artist or scientist or musician or philosopher tend to be individuals who are driven driven driven by an ecstatic urgency to give rise to that which is do the scientist is on the edge of a breakthrough with a theory won't sleep - come on get some rest I can't I can't I have to keep going to list what's up coming through them something's coming through the great artist the great musician the great scientist the great yeah but even think leader but also think bigger right human human here here I was like Martin Luther King this was the postmodern idea of pluralism and equality was surging through this man's being so so so the facility so the energy that the compulsion towards creative towards creativity that which compels human beings to be creative in all fields of human Dever what does it feel like in someone who has truly given themselves to the creative impulse it feels like x2 ecstasy and urgency it's an ecstatic urgency it's an ecstatic urgency to give rise to that which is new but now it's not at the bottle of gross biological level now it's in oh it's in it's in all these fields of art science music law cultural evolution in so many ways that's but then show you the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating Brahman as the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating universe is ecstatically compelled towards innovation and creativity creativity innovation remember innovation is always toward something that's new it hasn't happened before it's called emergence the emergence of something that has never existed before so when Einstein was driven with the theory of relativity it was a new idea it was a new revelation about the nature of reality and when you begin to understand that the dry toward the drive towards innovation to give rise to that which is new in art music science law in every field of human endeavor isn't coming from human beings it's coming from the end of the nature of the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe which is Brahman as the Creator is driven towards innovation what is because I want to ask you if you were God and you chose to create the universe and you are if you were God and you chose to create the universe and you are would you be more interested in what you had already would you be interested in what you had already created or would you always remember as Brahman not as your own personal ego would you always be more interested in what you haven't created yet would that compel you always more the next possibility in the next possibility or would you be more fascinated by what you've already done what's your what would you say well I think it's clear there I mean you were referring to this community as having a kind of creative energy and we've noticed that over 15 years as the general average became quarter could say that's a community got deeper into silence yeah then as a community there was much more creativity happening amazing people would start playing the piano the very people start going to make clay modeling go paint pictures the gallery has laid out left over the 15 years and and exactly in a some sort of relationship to the depth of the community amazing cuz now after 15 years there's a lot of silence here like a feel in the beginning there wasn't so much and in the beginning we had no time to paint pictures and all that let's just whatever though the work you're done but if you were God and you chose to create the universe would you be more interest in what you're already created or do you always worry be more interested in what you have not created yet I don't feel there's any kind of eye that's choosing that no but this is the metaphor there comes if the course is always new exactly new so if you were God you'd always be more interested in what you hadn't created yet which is the drive towards innovation that's the very drive towards innovations of the last piece of the puzzle is interestingly enough is that the evolute the urge towards your the urge towards consciousness which is the spiritual impulse which human being humans feel like I must be more conscious I have to become more conscious I must become more conscious I have to become more conscious I'm sure that's what brought you domestic punch it's what brought me domestic bungee-jump shirts with all brought all of you here to John David is the ecstatically it's the ecstatic compulsion the most subtle and profound form and manifestation of the evolutionary impulse which is the urge towards consciousness itself I must become more conscious I have to become more conscious where does it come from it doesn't come from modern culture it doesn't come from postmodern culture where does it come from it comes with the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe which is trying to evolve or become more conscious through you and through you and through you and through me and through John David and through Andrew the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe is trying to more become more conscious to reach and every one of us and how do we know because because we all have experienced and felt the vibration and compulsion of the spiritual impulse which at the highest level is the ecstatic compulsion towards consciousness itself I have to become more conscious I must become more consciousness obviously all of you have felt that that's why you're living together in this unique situation so when you get that it's not you are seeking for your own personal enlightenment really the end at the end Brahman God or Brahman as the energy and intelligence that created the universe it's trying to become more conscious through you because when you as you awake and you become more conscious the energy and intelligence becomes more conscious through you the energy intelligence that created the universe becomes more conscious through you which means the interior of the universe the exterior of the universe is mater the interior of the universe is consciousness and subjectivity as you become more conscious the universe becomes more conscious through you so your consciousness and your capacity for consciousness and knowing your capacity to know your capacity for depth it's not yours uniquely alone it exists as part of this grand play so the three these three different levels of the evolutionary impulse the biological command to procreate the urge toward creativity in all fields of human endeavor and finally the spiritual impulse itself which is the mysterious urge towards consciousness is also the experience of an ecstatic urgency urgency I must become our conscience I have to become more conscious but this is the most subtle and most profound manifestation expression of that impulse so the whole force of evolution is working in all these different levels and when you realize that it just changes the picture quite a bit changes the quick circle is guzzle then you realize God or Brahman is timeless formless being God his peace God is peace God is peace God is becoming God is the creative impulse God is the desire to exist God is the compulsion to exist God is the liberated creative energy and intelligence that exists in the universe and for human beings the human being isn't it true that we all are at our best when we feel this creative impulse working through us because when our human being is when the creative potential in the human being has liberated when you're giving your gift is a freedom from self-consciousness whether you're painting whether you're improvising with music whether you're you know whether you're doing whatever you do the unthinking the flow of creative freedom there's the freedom from self-consciousness self-consciousness is ego narcissism but when it through through creative activity we experience this is that flow State there's this free visit unselfconscious fruitlessly out there's a freedom of on self-consciousness and in that there's creative freedom and I feel that most people most human beings experience they're there at their best in those moments they're at their best so so in this in this concept in this in this interpretation from this vantage point we understand we understand liberation is not only the wakening the awakening to being the timeless formless beginning being in the peace of being and having a capacity to know that is it transmitted to experience it it also it also is when we are able to that we that that becomes the foundation of enlightenment but then along with that we begin to recognize and understand that the that the creative force in the universe is the manifest form of God or Brahman and we and we learn to ride that ecstatic urgency as not our own personal desire to exist but as the desire but as Brahman or God's desire to exist him or herself through us and and then and then as the seamlessness is the seamlessness is the seamlessness because the because we realized that god wants to exist in it through form otherwise the universe wouldn't exist it could have only been that want the eye with the one eye without a second it could have chosen to create the universe in the first place so your desire to exist my desire to exist when it's unfettered with psychological and neurosis there's a disjointed Oh in living the joy in does it joy in being ourselves is enjoying contributing wholehearted to wholeheartedly not self-consciously and passionately in life and we realize that is as much spirit that as much as it is that is as much Brahman as is the unmanifest nature of Brahman that's the short version so so you know if you would look at your life over the last twenty years or something or if I would look at my life over the last twenty years well let me talk about my life so I can see that increasingly things have titled appeal I don't know if that's the right word appeared through John David and have manifested like this community we we found this house twelve years ago and immediately was a sort of energetic place but of course it completely has developed and this development wasn't because anybody particularly had an idea how it should develop it's almost like Brahman developed it through whoever was living here because there were many more people living here who came and went so everybody who arrived somehow contributed something and then they off they went through and so what kind of gifts were brought here over them all those years and somehow together you can say all this all these ones who are attracted to live here together they have something has appeared something is manifested which completely wasn't there in the beginning I mean in the beginning this was a storeroom with bare concrete walls and broken down windows for yourself so years ago it's so beautiful what you've done yeah but what I'm saying is is it's not that anybody really did this it's it's like there was some kind of a flow happening through which could you call a spirit in action yeah something like that yeah yeah yeah but when you look around when I look around and see what you've done it's so beautiful it's so beautiful it's it's so beautiful it's like a that's that that seems to me that that is inherently what you've been saying yeah it's always going to be beautiful yeah I mean I've had this little theory for a long time that somebody like Michelangelo who painted the ceiling and painted the sculpture these amazing sculptures when he was only I think 21 who did the Pieta in the Vatican yeah so who was doing that was that Michelangelo doing that or was that exactly what you've been talking about doing that through Michael engine it was exactly if the energy and intelligence that created Universal is creating the universe working through the body mind personality the gifted mind body personality the uniquely gifted body mind personality of Michelangelo yeah yeah since he was 12 he learned how to break stones or cut stones you know so he had the skill and then this force somehow came through him was in a way channeled through him and he produced this amazing Pieta for example when he was 21 I think and later you know the story of how he painted the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel's I mean he never painted before hardly and he started with the fresco which is a special technique and after I did a month it all fell off which you know you can't read Michael Andrea will fell off what was that and he continued and continued and ended up with this enormous masterpiece everybody is touched to see that these fingers nearly touching I've seen it yeah been there yeah yeah so those kind of boaters are giving us I think the the pointer to exactly what you're saying actually it's very touching for me to hear what you're saying so thank you so so what so what I wants is what I've been trying to add to when the message says nothing ever happened nothing ever happened from the vantage point of the timeless formless ground of being but from the perspective of manifestation a lot is happening in that spirit in action that's as much greater brahman as the unmanifest is and so the universe wants industry the universe wants wants to exist and the one and the only one who wants the universe exist is the one who created it which is the deepest part of yourself in the deepest part of myself so if we know that and we recognize and we realize that it can be so liberating because in this is because the postmodern self is so educated so sophisticated wonders what's the perfect purpose of existence so modern scientific materialism said says that the universe was a random accident and the creative process has no meaning or purpose whatsoever you're an accident and you're an accident and urine accident your Nexen am i nothing means anything and then the urge towards beauty the urge towards beauty doesn't mean anything you if you did them the material the nihilistic and material postmodern nihilism and materials they tell you well if you if you feel that the beauty that you've chosen to create has meaning you can choose to believe that if you want to but it doesn't really mean anything if that's also meaning your truth anyway this it leads so so the the recognition that the universe wants to exist and the feeling of the evolutionary impulse and creative impulse will desire to exist is always is the conscious experience of pure positivity the urged making love is the experience is the experience of pure pure positivity is that once this once the once the sexual once the procreative energy has been awakened in the energy in the in the appropriative energy itself is there any ambivalence on that thing is there any ambivalence in in you or ambivalence in me as a separate individual but is there any ambivalence at all in the in the sexual energy itself no right there's no ambivalence about itself so in the same way and to create in the creative input the impulse to innovate to give rise to that which is new in art music science whatever it is so whatever you be you or I have been liberated into capacity to create there's no ambivalence in the creative impulse itself there might be ambivalence in you as an individual at a level of ego or me as an individual level of ego but in that impulse is know in there's no ambivalence in that impulse itself and when we can awaken when we can awaken to that directly we can we can experience that freedom from ambivalence or division about existence itself and finally at the highest level when you realize the urge towards consciousness is coming is gada Brahmas desire to book a move become more conscious through you and what does that feel like it feels like ecstasy and bliss an infinite potential infinite potential infinite potential that wants to exist and then you look out you see all you can recognize your own self in nature which is the desire to exist itself and what's the nature of the desire to exist is the experience of pure positivity there's no doubt pure positivity so if your positivity is the nature of existence before we started thinking about it and you recognize it's true it can liberate us into life it can liberate our humanity in so many ways and if you realize that's the ultimate truth about the nature of life itself a nature of the life impulse it's very very freeing very freeing and relief to liberate your passions to your positive passions your creative passions you create a passenger your spiritual passion to get liberated you read that's what spirit spirit in action is as much God a Brahmin as the unmanifest ground so nothing ever existed is one half of the picture and the desire to exist that's also real as the other half and it's an important part of the puzzle for the for the very unique cultural orienting perspective of the postmodern self needs to know it to exist as purely positive bad things happen in enlighten in the creative process but the desire to exist in and of itself is always pure positivity it's a nature of Brahman nature of God is a desire to exist in form so if the nature of nature Brahman the nature of God the desire to exist desire if the desire of Brahman regard to exist in form is pure positivity that means you are there pure positivity in human form so so evolutionary enlightenment is somehow the this understanding yeah the circle divided metaphysically met metaphor or whatever answer I'm not but but when you say that doesn't that mean that actually there is no end to this evolution yeah enlightenment but it's not because there's a kind of well when I was younger let's say I had the idea of enlightenment that there would be a sort of BIGBANG from one moment to the other I'd then I'd been lightened and that was it and then I would always be like that forever but evolutionary suggests that actually it's not like that it's always moving there's no fixed position it's always going to be developing there's no end well you're completely right but remember from from the perspective of awaken to Brahman as being awakening to Brahman is being awakening to the infinite nature of Brahman as being is a permanent stop and that permanent stop is an infinite stop so that there's a stop forever eternally eternally for eternity and that's on 1/2 and that and that is as extraordinary as profound and as miraculous every single time like the first time which is the only time never as is said such Eden and as ever new being consciousness bliss is ever new so on the beings of the beings of the unmanifest eyes II the eternal nature of eternity is eternally mesmerizing transfixing and liberating but on the other side God a Brahman is that that you said it perfectly does it is an infinite creative is an infinite creative process that yeah that is infinite now what's very interesting David Brooke John David what's very interesting something I've thought a lot about with this with this new evolutionary context so in in more of the traditional Vedantic orientation the idea is if you become enlightened and in traditional if you become fully liberated or you become a Jeevan Mukta somebody fully liberated in this birth so it is said you're liberated from the Incarnation 'el cycle you never have to come back to earth you never have to take human form right everybody get that you've heard that stuff before but if when you start thinking well look if it took if it took God or the energy and intelligence they created the universe for it more or less fourteen billion years to create a sentient life-form that had the complexity of consciousness to be able to cognize all this right and it's taken about fourteen billion years for the universe to produce essential life one that have the capacity to cognize the glory the majesty mystery of all of being and becoming would that be the moment to not want to come back but just at the moment you want wow this is amazing how amazing am I is that the moment say actually I don't really want to be here know that that's the ton that's that's that's the time to realize oh because you see because you see 'evil Evald because they violated at the levels of energy and matter biology and biology evolution happens at unconscious levels but when but when consciousness becomes aware of itself evolution rather that happens that happens it happens conscious beings to pursue it it doesn't it just doesn't carry on by itself so if you just leave it alone and walk away and the developments not going to happen it's when you as a unique individual become awakened to the evolutionary impulse on but become inspired to become more conscious that consciousness will will continue to evolve through you so the point is that if the universe is going to if the interior of the universe is can going to continue to complexify become more conscious you and I and all of us have to want to be here you have to want to be a state in it you sit to stay in the ride so the old metaphysics the old metaphysics which you exist in the traditional mythic religions like in Christianity for example if you live a moral life what happens when you die you get to go to heaven whatever happened that whatever happened to have is going to be the place where there's no suffering but that I that's an old idea of heaven because human life used to be much harder than it is now so the idea of people work so hard and there's so much violence and bloodshed you say oh my god I want to get out of here I don't ever want to come back but it's not true anymore it's just not true and so the point is the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe needs people like you and me that want to stick around not for our own sake personally but so that you so that the interior of the universe which is consciousness and subjectivity can continue to evolve through us and the point is if everything I've been saying was true if everything if everything if it's if it's what I'm saying is true that means you and I have already been have already been doing nothing for eternity listen you and I have already been doing nothing for eternity do you know what that means you but you and I have already been doing nothing forever and ever and ever and ever and ever so why would a few billion years of incarnate existence be such a big drama we've already been doing nothing forever why would you want to go back to doing nothing now is the time to get involved in the creative process but not as not merely as you and I is a separate vulnerable frail wound able human being as that indestructible energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe awakening to himself through the body my personality of you and me as Brahman him/herself so from that point of view where is there to go to shows just getting started and you and for this next phase were needed more than ever because you see it's human beings who created this beautiful ashram as human beings inspired by that that eternal have creative impulse but it's your creative capacities that may dispute this disaster I'm so beautiful spirit spirit needed your body mind personality in your inspiration in order to be able to give rise to this particular form of beauty you weren't you weren't it you wanted it could have been any any man or woman on the street it was you with your unique conditioning and unique your unique tastes unique drives have had a big influence on the unique form of beauty through which spirit has expressed itself in this context so when you understand that your humanity and the unique nature of your own conditioning in your own history and your own unique gifts spirit can use them to create spirit uses them very specifically to create the very universe that it gave rise to which means being a human being with unique creative capacities that only human beings have becomes all-important and then being human becomes a very big deal because then you realize the very leading edge of the creative process is happening through you it's remained through all of us so that means being here and being a by being conscious that being alive and being conscious that the ultimate context of being alive becomes really important and then it changes the picture like in such a dramatic way I mean what comes up for me in this moment is is that if I think what was going on in my life and I was living by myself in one guy one apartment in one city doing his life and what happens here where if you like there's 20 people living together very closely who are in a way having much more power I don't that's the right word but kind of much more power to manifest because often when we're for example got a project maybe a book or something maybe three or four people are sitting together and suddenly somebody has a great idea but later nobody says he had that idea we all had that idea so now in the same moment and so we've experienced many times in this community a kind of power of of of community communing together so I for me everything you've said when you then have it in a community situation rather there's an individual it just got much more power I am much more beauty absolutely so I've felt for many years now that this is this kind of small experiment that could suggest to humanity how you could live in a much more beautiful exciting powerful way and manifest perhaps more beauty well well spiritual communities for thousands of years inspired spiritual communities have manifested utopian idealism hmm so utopia is the promise of the possible so utopia is when you like we were talking about over dinner from promise of perfection so you tell me the problem the false utopia is if you fall in love they have a romantic and sexual intoxication you the illusion of utopia in the arms of your beloved you lover but spiritually when you speak about the nature of consciousness when you when we experience the perfection that which is perfect we experience that which is perfect as you have between your realization and then we become inspired to want to manifest the perfection that we that we've seen in it we've known in the world of form the right well the way I the waste experience over here is not so much about I mean it's just words but it just feels that that something wants to manifest through it's not like I'm deciding I want to do something it's just something meant wants to manifest and so many times suddenly there was a young woman here who'd been quite disturbed and she hadn't played the piano for many many years and one lunchtime she sat down started playing the piano and everybody was touched Wow and out of that she played more and more she made some we encouraged her to make a CD where she lived here now she gives concerts you know and Wow and it's like how did that happen how did it happen through that woman yeah so there is a kind of power that's manifesting when you bring various people together not really when you when you bring them but when these people some are attracted together because everybody here has chosen to be here and you must have found this in your own community that everybody chose to come there and be together because the power of the power of spirit increases by there's a quantum leap of spiritual potential people come together in this way it's an ordinary yeah it's dramatic and dynamic and amazing I mean I didn't personally plan to live in a community or to have a community was not my idea was the sort of accident I could say and maybe sometimes I might want to escape from that accident but actually I I can't think of anywhere I'd want to go and I can't think of any other way I'd prefer to live actually it's just everyday touches me to live in this situation with a bunch of very creative people who actually like you know I kind of like them all and somehow together when I see what we create we've creative books and we've actually made lots of spiritual films here because we have this ladies rather genius about editing so through her ability and her genea we've actually produced seven spiritual films which actually manifest in the world quite strongly we saw maybe 12,000 copies Wow and and that's completely touching because it came out of nothing she never edited a film before she was a photographer and so out of out of exactly the process you've been talking about through this lady manifested this amazing ability to edit seven spiritual films and of course it wasn't done by herself it was done also with a tremendous support of everybody around her even if they only brought her a cup of tea that's already supporting that manifesting creativity so it's very very touching to live as a community well when I first arrived in India in 1984 I went to Rishikesh and I went to the shivananda ashram to hear a talk great shivananda had to miss two main disciples one was for me cheated Anandi one was for me Chris Fernanda so this is life so I you know sat in the satsang called Swami Krishna and it was a very small man was a Fuller who was a pedantic philosopher but he lost was very versed in Western philosophy and later on he became a mentor to me and I didn't know I'm at the time and he gave a talk and I was just like yourself I had no idea of this des signes these potential in the collective the spiritual potential Olympic elected I didn't know anything about it I didn't care about groups I didn't want to have anything to do with the group when I went to MIT I went to many many meditation retreats because I just wanted to get enlightened and when I kept coming back to said would you like to work in the kitchen to do save I said no because I wanted to be in the in the cushion sitting before the Buddha statue and want to waste time doing anything else I was very single-minded so when I heard this talk so I called Samba Krishna nada gave at the end of the talk he said something along the lines of there's a drone can you hear a drone is a drone can you hear it it's coming from God you hear what he's saying can you hear it the drone has come together come together come together in unity their strengths come together come together come together and I don't know why but when he said those words I something hit me like a ton of bricks and I went into this state of Samadhi some public but I could hardly walk I got up and I stumbled out and walk down to the Ganga and I took me hours to recover and I always felt to that moment he was implanting me with this truth that you that you've been discover you've discovered in your own work that that the energy intelligence he created the universe is creating the universe at the level of spirit is calling all of us to come together as one come together as one in an Enlightenment context that's what we're doing and the Buddha was asked his assert the question is association with like-minded people a part of the holy life and his answer was association with people like-minded people is not a part of the holy life it's the whole of the holy life and I've come to understand that myself and I believe that to be true so this is a miraculous desire in spirit itself to recognize itself realize itself know itself between us then enlightenment is not really a solo journey anymore but it wants to come together but in the context of non-duality in the context of oneness and then this miraculous co-created potential you described emerges beautifully and somehow then out of that I think it would be interesting to talk a bit about the Guru or the teacher or the or the leader of this community or should there not be a leader of the community because this I can see for example that people come to our community or maybe don't come because it's community and there is a John Davies in the community who has got some kind of role which most people don't quite understand but maybe they project some kind of authority onto that role and they don't want anything to do with that authority because they have daddy and they had a prime minister or presidential something yeah so so in the West one of the reasons maybe there aren't more of these communities because actually there aren't that many as far as I can figure out is because people are very much against the idea of the right word but maybe we can say guru they don't like to have a guru they don't what they don't want to be involved with somebody who apparently knows more than they know and what I provide them yeah well the positive the postmodern ego says I do whatever I want whenever I want to do it and nobody tells me what to do right exactly I do whatever I want whenever I want to do it nobody tells me what to do so there is a rejection of authority and a contempt for authority right by here orbitals in a fear of it but especially and uniquely in the spiritual context so for example if you go to university and you senior study philosophy you you won't have trouble you you'll you'll respect you'll respect that the professor knows infinitely more about the subject than you do because that's why you and if you go to study law and in your first year student or a second year student and you're going to go study with the great law professor you're going to you're going to you're going to assume they know a lot more than you do if you can study medicine it's the same thing but particularly for the postmodern self who says nobody tells me what I do whatever I want to do whatever I want to do nobody tells me what to do is particularly offensive if anybody would claim or claim to have to know more about interior tea subjectivity met spiritual and metaphysical depth if anybody would claim to know more about what it means to be truly human it's seen as being very offensive because it means that we're not all equal in every way and the postmodern cell finds the possibility of some form of an inequality as particularly unbearable so the beautiful thing about India is because you have to remember that in the West there's no understanding about about deep into reality this is scientific materialism doesn't even recognize the truth the truth of subjectivity of their consciousness even exist so in a place like India for example everywhere you're going into you see statues of Lord Shiva or of Buddha statues or in any multiplicative Hindu gods and even on drug stores and supermarkets and any but the thing is there are there are symbols throughout India they represent deep in theory already so there's a recognition in India color culture it consciousness that exists consciousness exists is a fundamental truth about the nature of reality and that consciousness can evolve that some people know a lot more about consciousness than others but but in in a Western context there's no there's no appreciation of the fact that some people could know more about consciousness than anything else but so you can be a sports guru you could be a financial guru but if you're spiritual guru you must be a charlatan so there's a particular challenge in Western culture for acknowledging the fact that when it comes to consciousness some people maybe have more experience and have gone deeper than others because it's okay if you know more about science than I do smell okay if you know what is loss about philosophy okay if you know more about art but you can't know more about being but this I think mostly doesn't it mostly come from the sort of corrupted psychological issues people have about Authority about Debian and so on well it's definitely true but this is particularly postmodern problem because the postmodern revolution was it was a revolution against authority was against tyranny also understood for good reasons against the tyranny of authority yeah - Artie that's been mischievous misbehave is used and turned it to tyranny all right for very good reasons you know and so the other problem is that people see in relationship with the spiritual guru that many people seem to give up their power and has it has been part of the dynamic of giving up hmm personal power and a significant measure of personal autonomy and and I'm not sure that can really work so well anymore in the West so I very much think that the the role the spiritual mentor the spiritual adept and the spiritual master is essential if people are going to be able to actually find their way you can't because because the spiritual path is ago was visibly is the path is awaking to that which is subtle and once you've awakened that which is subtle it gets even more subtle and more subtle and more somewhat more subtle and it's impossible to make it's impossible to go on that almost impossible on that journey and find your own way and only with the guidance of someone who's well who's proved himself who demonstrated them to themselves to be much farther along the way will do with any hope most people that help of actually making any real progress I think that part of the problem is and we were discussing this earlier then we have to give up the illusion that the spiritual realized or the spiritual masters of spiritual depth is the perfect human being hmm yeah there's all human beings that works in progress hmm everybody's imperfect so a big part of the problem is in the traditional mythic context the spiritual adept the spiritual realized with the spiritual master is perfect it's not all it's not only realized the infinite nature of consciousness and being itself but is also presumed to be a perfected human mm but there was no such thing as a perfected human because all human beings are works in progress even spiritually realized human beings award works in progress right and so so the I so that the Oh in the old model which comes to us from the mythic traditional era oh the master knows everything and I know nothing and then the master plays the role of the perfect parent and then the the adult it becomes me Fanta lies and so I think we need to these roles need to develop and evolve as cultures when involving so what I believe we need to do in the West is learn how to honor the truth in the reality of the potential for the awakening to enlightened awareness and for the evolution of consciousness is real and it means something and to awaken in this way has enormous developmental and evolutionary significance for human beings and for Humanity as a whole and this needs this needs to be brought into Western consciousness and bred to Western culture in a way it has so far hasn't yet and at the same time we have to deem demythologize the whole package which is this usually can only come in the package of the perfect master the perfect human and we have to realize that all human beings are imperfect including spiritual realizes will have enormous gifts to offer but are all works in progress like anybody else and this is not so easy because because it's something to do with personal empowerment I think is maybe the the issue the people are in a way they've been conditioned to follow so they're looking for somebody to follow and but when it's turned around on them to follow themselves and empower themselves there is some kind of resistance to that well that's part of the paradox because because more often than not people want to be told what to do and don't want to take full responsibility for their own lives and then went and then when they then will often be willing to give up their own power in order to be led but sooner or later are going to resent it and get angry and will and will feel very Vic Tangra and victimized by their own choices to do that but what I think is more important is that we have to find a way to be willing to learn which takes enormous humility to be willing to learn about being human and to learn about being truly humble to learn about being transparent to learn about being vulnerable to learn how to be yea free I mean this was one of the touching things that happened when I met you in the cafe in the French cafe you know in India because I didn't know you at all and of course I read various stories about you so you you know in the beginning I knew you as an amazing character who was putting out really amazing information into the world through dedicated to that somehow and then later later I heard then of course some some bla bla bla but when I actually met you you were talking about actually humbleness yeah it was somehow an issue in that conversation and maybe this is now an issue in your life and I mean when we would meet you now today here I think everybody would find you on the edge of Humble not on the edge of authoritarian for example but maybe people don't know you read your I don't know how to call it but anyway the stories of you in the internet would make you into somebody who is very authoritarian yeah and not somebody who who's really involved in humble so I'm very very pleased that we invited you here and they came here and what you were saying to us tonight was very very beautiful for me personally thank you yeah and was very clear and I think we can all understand it company and we're all touched on with it yeah I was very much helping we were going to meet because you'd mentioned when we met at the cafe by meeting in Europe so I was so pleased when we here that you'd reached out everything I was because I'd wanted that to happen it's very funny actually because you know I really wanted it to so I put your card in a very special place where I wouldn't lose it and then when I wanted to call you I couldn't find this card of course I put it somewhere very special and then finally I one moment that was this energy and then I went on your website and then there was a place where you could send a message to you so it's very interesting how these things also happen yeah well thank you for that yeah somebody had a kind of question to do with what Andrews been talking about who would like to to dialogue a bit with him because I had the idea we perhaps don't talk too much more here but we go and have a more relaxed cup of tea together and keep Andrew talking until he drops sounds like a great idea but if somebody has a particular question in this context here yeah from what place the student can know and discriminate is to open up to a deeper and deeper trust and surrender to the teacher or if the teachers personality is a hindrance in the relationship to the student can you ask the question again without reading it it's about trust and surrender of the widow with a teacher and it yeah I'm just here for a year and passing through different difficulties and good times and bad times and and yes and I try to find a place out of my mind because this is this every time I get into troubles and into pain this is all with a mind I will try to fight it in a fighh the place where to where to where to go where there is when there is they have where to go and I want to trust more or to surrender more I can you be more specific no order well not because you said it had something to do with the teacher-student relationship but originally and then then that was not part of the question anymore yes I want to read it because from what place out of the mind I can like judge where if the where to go I kind of know if I open up myself more or if I run away they say the mind what are you referring to when you say the moans well there all kinds of thoughts do all kinds of some thoughts come from some thoughts or sublime thoughts some thoughts are sacred sublime enlightened thoughts and other thoughts are not so sacred not so sublime will come from the ego and are full of narcissism and dark dark intentions so which kind of thoughts are you talking about doubts about what if I'm what if I'm at the right place or if I'm if I'm right or from David is right or David is right well but you have to become clear because you see I mean the bottom line is and this is something I learned from the master is that unless you unless you try and send out absolutely and unconditionally once and for all you'll never be free and I think that Rama no Maharshi said the only difference between enlightenment and enlightenment is doubt with me you with me with me so this is so uh none of us are in an absolute sense it's very important that at a certain point once you've been convinced that for example when I when I met the master I was with him for three weeks we spent this beauty he wasn't known then he was he was nobody with him I had the most amazing three weeks of going to sit me sit with him every day in his room he had a small room in his son's house in Lucknow we'd go for walks together we drink tea together he invited me to his son's house for dinner and for lunch he was very generous very kind very gracious we'd sit quietly in his room we talked I asked some questions and then he said to me when you leave me something very big is going to happen to you and I was thinking how does he know and I was full of doubt when I was with him half the death of this most incredible person I ever met the other half the death that he's the crazy old man that doesn't know what he's talking about and I why am I even here you follow and then when I left him the most unbelievable thing started happening to me I a metaphysical alchemical process which I'm sure you went through something similar which lasted for three weeks and I've never been the same since and at and also when I met him you he would with hardly anybody to see he was always calling himself the master I am the master I'm the best he was talking about himself all the time telling and I thought he was a huge narcissist and you know you had to go touch his feet so I touch his feet reluctantly like why should I touch his feet why should I do that he's so full of himself meanwhile he meanwhile I did never gave him any money didn't ask for anything for me he gave me all his time for free he was being so utterly gracious giving at night and I was still not fully appreciating what was happening and when I left him he left him I looked back and he was just laughing he was just waving at me laughing I thought what's the matter with him and then I went on the train and there's something something happened to me that I couldn't imagine I was completely overwhelmed by this vibe this metaphysical presence is force of consciousness that would that started consuming my very being it lasted for week it literally felt like I was dying every day and it was it was on it was um it was unbearable and it was a level of ecstasy that was unbearable it was level of pain and fear that was unbearable and there's a level of I realized this is everything you could have ever asked for times a billion and all I could do them was just let go and surrender and let go and surrender and icon surrender I was I didn't have any choice anymore something I was being overtaken by a force of nature of consciousness itself that was consuming my my ego it disappeared so then when I went back to Lucknow after three weeks I fell at his feet and ice pursed into tears I just fell down on the ground and fell and burst into tears because I realized who he was he was Brahman in human form his human personality which I actually had a lot of problems with his human personality he told me I want you to teach I want he fully empowered me to become a teacher but later on we started to have problems because I started to notice that the perfect master that I'd been with 2 3 weeks and he was a perfect master with me he treated me with nothing but kindness nothing with generosity nothing but care and he gave me everything I ever could have imagined times a billion you understand you can't repay that kind of gift it can't be repaid you follow you with me but then later on I started to notice that on a human level he was imperfect his personality had flaws it was and then all these problems started to come up between he and I and it but got very messy and I realized at a certain point at a certain point in my arrogance in my arrogance and my arrogance I started to forget who he really was who he really was is what he gave me yes he was he using imperfect human being but that was irrelevant to the reason I went to see him and I said I and I over a period of years forgot about that and then at some point around 10 years ago I was at my ashram we used to have in Massachusetts and it was the atom and this was the day of the anniversary it's Marvin my wife it's March 25th 1980 Phil's March 25th which was the anniversary anniversary of meeting my meeting him and I was walking down those walking down to my office and I had this vision this and I wasn't thinking about him I wasn't thinking about him I wasn't thinking about this vision that he was a vision and I saw the master and surrounded by golden light he just appeared to me from another dimension this is the truth I do not explain it I know these things happens around him all the time he appeared to me from another dimension he was just smiling and I and I and I realized that our connection was eternal and nothing that ever could happen or what happened between us in Rome time and space could ever affected and I since then I've reflected on my own arrogance forever because I had objections to different issues that actually were none of my business because he gave me everything and I owed him everything he owed me nothing so and I feel more gratitude not to him now than I ever have in my life he's new he's even more he he as my guru is more alive in my consciousness you know and then he has been in a long long time and I have remained doubtless about that meeting that that meaning changed my life forever nothing's ever been the same since and know what no matter what to use his language appears to be happening no matter what appears to be happening that's the all that's the ultimate what he revealed to me is the ultimate truth that never changes no matter what I think about it so when something like so when you when you have found what you're looking for if you if you if you if you have found it you know it so if you if you have if you found what you're looking for and there's been no coercion whatsoever you understand that means no coercion it's been minute freely received and you know it you have to acknowledge it to yourself and to the universe right because the minds going to doubt everything in anything the ego is going to doubt everything doesn't matter how glorious how profound the eagle is going to doubt everything even the most profound awakening will be down remember the Buddha was tested by Mara and Jesus was tested when he was out in the desert so we're all going to be tested no matter how much God reveals himself herself to us no matter how much we realized we've seen the truth with the capital T and there's no about it we're good at Datak suit early the Eagles going to because in it was going to is going to raise all kinds of doubts and try and try and get us to back down so the issue is if you have found if you know that that moment care has come and I know exactly what happened in my case which is what I was describing to you then you didn't you never then did then from that moment on you never doubt it now there's another issue which has to do with discrimination so doubt in the negative form of questioning the absolute and the truth of the absolute is one thing with discrimination the discrimination is you want to know what's actually happening what's act what's what's the truth of what's happening I need to know what's the truth of what we all need to assuming beings need to discriminate between truth and falsehood truth and ignorance right and the ego it has its own agenda which is very different than you know what I can evolutionary language called the authentic self the authentic self is a pure motivation that comes from this is the enlightened part of itself this is a very pure motive it's free from ego so that part of our self has a very pure motive the ego has a whole different agenda so in a spiritual context like this or any Aslan with any real guru the small the ego is going to be pushed pushed against the wall because it's going to be the intruder the one who's going to ruin the party is always going to make a problem always going to make everything wrong find a way to destroy the purity of purity of spirit itself and it can and it will so that's why there's so much spiritual work is about seeing what the ego is recognizing it and taking responsibility for it and ultimately not acting on it because if we because if we keep on giving an ego power it will destroy the most beautiful thing we've ever ever found if we're not careful but that doesn't mean we cease to discriminate right truth from falsehood discrimination and the way I'm using it now is different than doubt that's doubting the doubting our own experience of the absolute or knowledge of the absolute and the other thing is that when we have these deep really deep in science or a moment of absolute depth and then you come out of it as you inevitably will does the ego can't remember it the ego can't cuz um what caused a moment of timelessness the infinite the infinite depth of timelessness can't be remembered by the ego that only lives in time you follow so you could have the most amazing skull mine and then you come back into ego say though that wasn't really anything was it say but don't you see what you were just saying if you met understand understand metaphorically see my point so I mean this is very very interesting actually what you just said because one of the biggest mysteries for me personally as a teacher is that over many many years I've met people who I felt had a great potential and then they had some kind of experience I thought great there really and then they just disappear and I could never understand how can they just walk away because they forgot you know this what you just said is is makes it to literally forgot you know and it's so easy to forget well if this is being for 20-something years I've just never been able to understand it what's because they fall back into the gross mind of the ego yeah and grow smiley they can't perceive can't recognize can again again know right the infinite depth of the herb eternal consciousness it just little is to forget to stay to forgetfulness yeah and and the ego the ego can't know it do you'll never know it so when people fall out of it they forgot what they forget what they knew and they lose touch with the freedom with the unconditional freedom and liberation that said of consciousness we've also seen for example people who lived in our community for quite a few years and had a good time had experiences and were absolutely part of the community a lot of openness and love and so on and so on and then something happens whatever it is all side outing stop doubting or they fall in love with somebody that's often the case and there's some sort of catalyst that happens and then they just kind of powerlines crumbles they closed right down and then they want to leave and we discovered that we can't talk to them it comes to a point it's close to the point where you can't you can't come into them anymore and you just have to weigh them goodbye that's it that's so painful so tragic I've been to that hundreds of times yeah yeah and so so it seems that in fact there's two worlds two perspectives and especially if you really want to go deep and then stay deep you can't really have it both ways no no so for example remember that if you want to become a like a monk in in Abaddon to context in order to you have to take a 12-year vow of not seeing your family for 12 years and then then you put in the saffron robes that call it the saffron the color of the color of the color of fires the fire pronunciations to burning away of illusion and all the attachment attachments and they're being attached to anything other than Brahman him/herself any attachment then together Brahman as seen as being false so we have to the vows the burner is to take a vow of renunciation for 12 years to burn away that at least in theory so the thing is when I've been struggling with it's because I had a large community for 27 years and I miss that community desperately her I desperately miss being together in this extraordinary work be together in the in that shared commitment and in the glory of it the majesty of it the infinitely ever the ever unrealized infinite potential of it all and so compelling it to share and to share that that the new the new world and then of course I was always very one of one of my gifts as a teacher was being able to get people to make to inspire people to make a commitment to want to be free more than anything else want to be free more than anything else to want to be free more than anything else and so now that I'm starting to teach again I keep them saying there's got to be an easier way to do this because I don't want to end up in these situations where people love me one day and hate me the next where I represent utopia one day and then I represent for their ego being in prison the next day because the spiritual masters represents the potential of unconditional liberation to the to the authentic self and to the ego represent being in a prison forever which is no way and I kept on thinking there's got to be a better way to do this it's God but there isn't because because at a certain point of death and commitment two worlds emerge two worlds emerge two worlds over it's really true so maybe this is the nature of the play of it all that people come to some what you could call limit and then they go away and other people don't come to the limit and they keep going and maybe that's just the way it's set up in existence yeah but the thing is the consciousness consciousness is in love with itself consciousness is in love with itself so I'm sure you've found or like you just said the someone who you were in love with and who was in love with you and I'm sure was in love with all of you suddenly fell out of love because when you fall back in love with your ego you fall out of love with the infinite nature of consciousness itself so suddenly sharing the love of the infinite nature of consciousness with another person with other people with the teacher and with the community is a completely different orientation to time and space than loving the separate have been being in love with your separate self and your sub resulting in level school but also separate self it's just a completely different context for consciousness completely different context to be alive in and it's completely different so have you know to in this 27 years what is the main saboteur because I would immediately forget a relationship you know as soon as a romantic relationship starts it feels to me this is always the biggest saboteur because we've been so much conditioned about the rightness of this romantic relationship well that's one that's that's a that's a big saboteur I'm off more often than attitude exhibitor but I think the biggest saboteur is forgetting who we really are forgetting who we really are and when I'm falling falling back into the belief system of the small self but that always happens as soon as you start to fall in love with somebody because if you you know you're giving you're giving it to somebody and before you're giving it to everything if you like sure that often happen so so they go together I think it often happens but it doesn't need to in a spiritual context where both parties want the same thing so I met my wife 32 years ago on a meditation retreat and when we met after the retreat we both confessed that we wanted to be enlightened more than anything else and that and and wanted that freedom more than anything else and so we and that's remained true so we're still together but that in our relationship it was it never became about us it was always about the thing itself but that was an Indian woman I don't think she's Indian is what I can make a difference too yeah definitely definitely vited but what I'm saying is actually true though because you see the thing what makes it difficult is because the cult because modern or postmodern culture which is what our background doesn't share these metaphysical values but share them the values of modernism and post-modernism when you fought because the ego the separate self centers constructed in a cultural context so when the cultural environment in which your separate self census business has been constructed has not yet seen discovered or awakened to the infinite nature the eternal nature of consciousness itself when you're identifying through when you're identifying with your small cell structure that comes from a modern or postmodern cultural background that has not yet discovered that consciousness is real from that part of yourself doesn't have the capacity to remember what you've discovered when you let go of it when you turn when you went to a deep much deeper place and that part of yourself has different values like it has materialistic values or the ordinary kind of moment for the promise of utopia kind of the nuclear family those kind of ideas this is you're going to be happy when you're in the arms of your beloved and you live in a beautiful place together and your beautiful children and your beautiful work and your enough money you go beautiful vacations every year you and you have make beautiful children for making love up the usual usual 2-dimensional story but it holds it holds a lot of emotional weight to the part of you to the part of your so if they grew up in that cultural environment that condition these beliefs into you that's where you can find happiness that's where you can find security when you wake up to your true self with your authentic self you're always already free you don't need that kind of security that you're that York a penis is based upon having nothing knowing nothing and being no one it's being free from those ideas and swimming in that freedom is this liberation here and now it's direct its immediate something that has to be where to wait for or has to be created and all we need to do then is create an environment that will give us easier and easier and easier access to our own depth so we can wake in and reawaken and reawaken and have access to those deeper states of consciousness as often as possible and that's what keeps the ego down to keep Siegel down sometimes if I I know if I did you retreat the beginning of the tree people come in there is you know this yourself they're in there in their small self and then you find out one day two day three days and then it calms down and then a new consciousness begins to awaken and you suddenly after it's a weekend or ten days or whatever then you meet at the end in a completely different state of consciousness with a completely different set of values and if you could just stay in that place how do we stay in that place then people go off their separate ways and then when you meet next time usually pretty close to where they were the first time but they now they come back in the hope the hope of it will happen again or something like that so it's far in my way of being unless some individuals with them stabilizing this consciousness we have to do whatever we can do to create the most ideal conditions in which that kind of depth will be available to us and we and we have to create those conditions that will make it more easy for us easier for us to wake up on one hand but then the most important thing is to stay awake so relationship so being in a relationship with someone who seems to be stabilized in a much deeper place begin in a relationship and staying connected with someone who stabilized in a much deeper state of consciousness is essential and fundamental and then sharing having our most intimate relationships with friends etc needs to be need to be with people who share the same values the same spiritual aspirations we do and we have to there has to be some kind of structure to keep this all these things are necessary to keep the ego down it's like a wild dog you don't keep it down it's going to jump back up and take control of your soul right and remember the ego we're talking about it's not separate from culture itself so the values of the separate ego car come from cultures as well so in spiritual context we create a culture with different values so in that you come to an ashram like this you come into the environment you're co-creating a couple of different set of shared values together right should different set of shared agreements that's what changes everything and when you're sharing those agreements together then your your your you you inevitably start creating a bully different into subjective context and I can remember some years ago before this community if I would have a retreat I was breaking all the concrete now I take half the community with me and they break the concrete and then I can break a bit or polish the concrete maybe so actually my secret weapon I don't even know if they know that they're my secret weapon is actually these guys of course they are and when we go into the community into a retreat it's almost embarrassing for me to see how much more open my guys are nobody does the regular car that's proof of proof positive your work yeah well I of course I'm happy with that but but it's amazing to see the difference it's shocking yeah shocking you know but anyway thank you guys it's much easier now for me than it used to be of course this is another great value of community I mean new people that come into this community they have an enormous how absolutely value because there's been a community 15 years they can come in and suddenly they're they're floating up on a different level they get to benefit for all the accumulated knowledge and work for the people have worked very hard yeah to work on themselves as a develop yeah and it can we can be all be uplifted by other for other people's work if we yeah yeah well done Bravo but it's proof that it works yeah that's why human beings have been coming together in these kind of contexts for millennia I mean you've used the word ashram several times which is okay for me but in a way we're a tribe we're like a tribe from somewhere in Africa you know and we're a tribe of people living together in a very intimate way you know there's grandma here and the kid is here every teenagers and everybody's here but it but but if the if the glue that if the glue that holds everybody together and the organizing principle is consciousness itself consciousness consciousness is primary consciousness is infinite it's beginningless and endless of everything that's what changes everything because that's why why you're together is because of the truth of consciousness and the fact of consciousness which is inherently self liberating so if that's that's what changes everything when consciousness becomes the ground of your relatedness that's a couple of different cultural environment than if it's not the case it changes everything well so thank you very much and thank you thank you thank you very much I'm glad to the you know the powers brought me to but I just don't mind the others um Barry thank you thank you