Andrew Cohen: An interview on Evolutionary Enlightenment (2018)

sitting here with Andrew : you just arrived from Germany in Holland and brought in the good weather well it looks like it looks like it thanks for that thank you any time my first question is the big question for everyone here in Holland who is on a spiritual search what is enlightenment so you want to start the interview with that she was such a small question yeah and then go into the deep with you well in in my particular orientation which is the orientation why I call evolutionary enlightenment I make a distinction between what I call traditional enlightenment and evolutionary enlightenment so in a traditional definition of enlightenment happens when there is a very deep experience of awakening recognition or realization or discovery of the deepest part of the self and the deepest part of reality itself which is traditionally called the ground of being the Buddha called awakening to this depth dimension he called it the the uncalled it the the unborn and the deathless and this is the direct recognition and realization of level of consciousness to direct awakening to the foundation the ultimate foundation of all of reality which is nothing less than the timeless formless void or empty place or zero point from which the entire creative process burst forth 14 billion years ago so before the universe was created before time and space there was no thing whatsoever there was no time there was no space there was no form there was no mind there was nothing at all so when we enter into very very deep meditative States when the mind begins to fall away from the center of our awareness and begins to just disappear into the distance and when our awareness of the world begins to disappear into the distance and when I awareness of physical form begins to disappear into the distance we become aware of a timeless formless beginningless and endless and nothingness voidness emptiness the place of unconditional freedom the reason it's a place of unconditional freedom is because before the universe was created before the time process began nothing ever happened before the universe was created before time began before history everything was perfect so before the universe was created everything was perfect in the deepest meditative States we have awakened to this depth dimension that is simultaneous simultaneous with and identical to that time was formless empty zero-point from which everything emerged fourteen billion years ago and the reason it's such a source of exhilarating freedom and liberation is because when you experience when you directly awaken to and directly have the experience the conscious experience and recognition that the deepest part of reality itself is is none other than the deepest part of the self deepest part of the end of our yeah the deepest part of themself and that and the nature of that depth dimension is a timeless formless beginningless and endless freedom that's untouched by anything that ever happened in time there's a place that's free from pain free from suffering free from fear fear free from doubt free from everything it's the ultimate relief from the burden of existence from the burden of conscious existence and so in the generally speaking in the traditional Eastern enlightenment it's waking it's wakening to this absolute depth dimension or what's traditionally called Brahman consciousness or Brahman awareness it's the source of the experience of freedom that great historical luminaries like the Buddha were speaking about so you tired and bored when I asked that question is that true or is it just my perception this your perception okay you still like to talk about this subject or because for me it's like the I can't I can't stop listening to people like you who tell me but I hope I'm not am i boring you no no I'm guessing that that all those seekers like me yeah I still ask the same question that's okay that's what I'm here to answer the same questions I've been answering the same questions for thirty years so and that never bores you mm-hmm and the answer is is that always the same or is that just well it depends upon the context in which I'm asking the questions because sorry it depends about the context in which the questions are being asked and it depends upon the level of sincerity from which the question is coming from almost that will have some effect but the subject itself is infinitely compelling an infinitely fascinating any explanation for that why white is such a fascinating subject to talk about because we're talking about a dimension of reality that is infinite so we talk about that which has no beginning in there and that which has no end now which is literally infinite that which is which is always a source of absolute and unconditional liberation freedom it's always completely intoxicating and mesmerizing mesmerizing and thrilling to talk about it because as we talk about it the thing itself comes alive in consciousness and that's part of the reason why it's so so much fun and ever compelling to speak about it and also remember that traditionally this depth dimension in Vedanta is referred to as sat-chit-ananda being consciousness bliss and it's referred to as being ever new being the being consciousness bliss timeless formless beginningless and endless being consciousness bliss he's ever new so it's always new so it's always like the first time always fresh always fresh so it's not like I'm reading the newspaper of last week when I listen to this talk in a year it still sounds like we're telling me well because both were well but the reason is because we're talking about a dimension of reality that's free from time so so if we're talking about a deaf dimension that's literally free from time where he's literally timeless it can never get old it can ever it can never oh we can never always already know it we can never already know it it can never it can never be become historical phenomenon it's all it's all it's only something that can be realized and recognized and understood and seen and felt in the present moment and that's why it's not boring that's why it's never born that's why it's ever new innocence the only it's the only it's the only thing that has this quality of our newness to it nothing everything else we can get it we can get familiar with you know and already know with this particular dimension of reality this particular depth dimension is something we can never already know yeah so that's why you tomorrow you're going to talk about this from let's say 10:00 in the morning till late in the evening and that doesn't tire you or no I it to me it's a source of infinite energy it's infinitely compelling and infinitely inspiring so god but I believe that God put me on earth to speak about this that's why I'm here so if I can't speak about it I'm not able to speak about it I suffer much more than if I have to speak about a date yeah so it feels this fills you with joy absolutely fills me with joy and but even more importantly mice to me speaking about it seems to fill out the people with joy also so that's a big part of the reason that I do it because when I'm speaking and this has been happening ever since I met my guru in 1986 the he he bestowed upon me a gift and the gift it was not actually just to share information but but it would but was the miraculous capacity to be able to directly transmit share share at a level to be that's deeper than intellectual understanding they're very enduring nature of the miracle of that which is infinite so in other words people often when people listening to me they don't just hear the words but they have the experience of feeling and knowing now which is an infinite in a way that they don't ordinarily have access to and that's the reason that I'm doing it is to transmit not only a perspective but also an experience yeah and could could it be addictive to the experience it is addictive yeah it could be that I'm gonna listen to this talk for the next couple of weeks every time I go to bed just because the feel of it or did this fear that that Monsieur has well what well the thing is the depth dimension we're speaking about is always seeking for itself in time the depth dimension we're speaking about is always seeking for itself in time so the the spiritual impulse the impulse that compels us to start seeking for us for spiritual freedom and for liberation and for enlightenment is is this this this depth dimension is seeking for itself in and through sentient beings who have not yet walk into it it's constantly seeking for itself and trying to awaken to itself and trying to discover itself in the salt mines and souls of individuals who haven't discovered it yet spirit is always seeking for itself in and through perform spirit of unmanifest timeless formless unmanifest spirit is always seeking for itself in its reform these bodies in these minds are form a spirit in action and is there a wide to it is there a why - why would spirits search for itself well I guess I believe that there is I believe that there is and it's my understanding that the energy and intelligence that created the universe and it's creating the universe I call the evolution the evolutionary impulse so there's a evolutionary motive for creative motivation in the universe and that evolutionary motive or creative impulse emerged from this timeless formless beginningless and endless void so from nothing came something so from nothing came we could say the desire to exist the will to exist so we could see the creative process that gave rise to the evolving universe and that's giving rise to the evolving universe we could interpret as the wilt there's a will to exist in the in the creative process and so I believe that the that's that the ultimate nature of spirit the condition of which before the universe was created was timeless and formless and empty wanted this is an anthropomorphic interpretation of ultimate erupts in reality wanted to exist as form so I see the the beginning of the universe of the creative leap from nothing to something from being to be coming from formlessness to form as the will of absolute spirit or God to to realize himself or herself in and through the world of form which became which is to create a process itself so the creative process is formless spirit manifesting itself in and through time and space and form and matter and ultimately life in mind and there is that and what the and the energy be evolutionary impulse for the creative energy that's driving this process is the is the is the experience of an ecstatic compulsion life itself is ecstatically compelled to exist and to and and in in that desire to exist is compelled to complexify and become more of what it can be and that and human beings experience that the truth of that when they feel creatively inspired create events creator inspiration the desire to give rise to something new that's never existed and inspired by the evolutionary impulse or the creative impulse itself is the experience of ecstasy and joy and a certain there's a great sense of urgency like this really should happen it needs to happen must and but the feeling that it must happen needs to happen it's the experience of a pure positivity the will to exist a life impulse in and of itself the will towards life in and of itself if we if we pay attention to it is the experience of a purely positive desire to exist and and existentially that that truth means a lot about what it means to be human is that what I tell people who are a little depressed go out and create make it great dating yes absolutely because what that means get out of your your neurotic mind and right right ride the waves and the energy and the intelligence of the creative impulse itself and I've noticed that when human beings are giving rise to their gifts whatever they unique created gifts are everybody had people have different talents but when when people's create when their only unique capacity for creativity is moving through them and they enter into a flow state and they can feel that something is happening through them and through and through through this flow say something is actually coming into being that's beautiful individuals experience the state of a state of freedom and a state of ecstasy in a state of joy and state of wonder it's something bigger than them is working through them to give rise to something that potentially is never existed before and this and this this is a very important expression and manifestation of spiritual freedom you forget about time when you're doing that you completely forget about the time you get to get lost in the creative process ecstatically ecstatically lost because one is in a state of utter one-pointed concentration and one is compelled by the miracle of the possible so the most thrilling thing about life itself you see is the is always the unmanifest potential the imminent potential of what could be so the in what I would call the the more the traditional interpretation of an Enlightenment there's an emphasis to be with what is here and now to be with what is here and now which is which is the foundation of the traditional orientation of position and there's there's there's also another orientation which has to do with more of the evolutionary dimension of enlightened awareness which is which is being fascinated which is being ever fascinated and ever compelled by the imminence of the possible about what could be what could be what could be so I always ask people if you just to enter into a state of imagination if you were God if you were Brahman if you if you if you were the only one that could have created the universe and gave rise to the entire creative process the entire evolutionary process and you actually did that would you be more interested in what you've already created will you always be more interested in what you haven't created yet so most people usually answer I would always I would always only be more interested in what I had not yet created so the so the so the energy and intelligence that created the universities creating the universe is this is this is this creative intensity in consciousness that is always awake to the imminence of the possible always awake to what could be and is and therefore its attention is more on is more on what could be than what is which is very fascinating awake to what could be rather than what is so it's a it's a it's a it's a unique vantage point and it's a different vantage point and both both vantage points of the vantage point of the traditional alignment with being being present to what is here and now in the present moment is foundational it's essential it's very important and it's the foundation of enlightened awareness but it's not it's not that's not all there is to it because there's another dimension to enlightened awareness and this is why I believe enlightenment itself is evolving our understanding of the experience in the appreciated what are in the oven living light awareness in the capacity human capacities for enlighten awareness is also evolving because because now there's this there's this new emergent evolutionarily driven fascination with the imminence of the possible what what what what could be and there is an there's there's an ecstatic there's an ecstatic fascination with what could be which we all can find access to on the pop concert and the band members start jamming exactly creating something new the crowd goes wild yes same with comedians on stage who we just start joking with the audience people immediately start applauding yes this is fresh in you this is what things I come for so I believe exactly right so I believe the energy and intelligence that created the universe is creating the universe is that very energy is a very creative energy and motivation and when when a human being awakens to that same energy and intelligence in themselves they find a completely new vehicle force for spiritual liberation which is writing the writing that the wave of the possible and when we as you said you as you said yourself before when we become come when we give ourselves and we won't become compelled by and give ourselves to this to the imminence of the possible we tend to stop thinking about what went wrong and what's troubling us in our neurotic fears and concerns and we become we become fascinated by something that's by a purely positive motivation that's ultimate that that that relates to the ultimate reason to exist because when we when we as I was saying a few minutes ago when we discover that the fundamental motivation that gave rise to the to the universe that gave rise to the creative process and that's giving rise to it right now is a purely positive which is a purely positive driver the the will that the would be the cosmic will to exist is the experience of pure positivity it we begin to experience a much deeper truth about the nature of existence than the one that they're more than once we tend to be fascinated by we were lost in our neurotic thinking in the world of our separate self or ego we tend to be lost in very narrow and small minded and very self-centered vantage points our orientations in relationship to the experience of being human so when we break her through when we break through these deeper dimensions and find a non-relative or absolute source of existence and discover that that absolute source is this is the is a movement and vibration and direct experience of pure positivity it tells us that though that the will towards life the world towards existence itself use the experience of pure positivity and when we can experience that directly we realize that to exist is good even if we may have had a hard time as most people have at one time or another even if we've had a hard time even if we've suffered there's a deeper truth there's a deeper reality which is that in spite of all of that the what the ultimate will to exist the non relative wraps it will to exist is purely positive so that the University we find is a good place to be and we also find from this particular vantage point perspective and even being ourselves it's a good thing even being even being the unique person and personality that we are from this perspective we find we find it's actually a great gift it's not it's not a burden to be overcome which is how too many people feel about themselves and their own lives as it's a great burden over overcome we suddenly realized that to be ourselves is because is a great gift we realized from that from a non-relative wraps the perspective I am and you are the energy intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe awakening to itself and realizing and recognizing itself through the body mind and personality of in my case Andrew or each and every one of us this energy that this body mind of personality is a vehicle through which the energy and intelligence that created the universe can recognize itself realize itself and consciously create itself and this is a this is a very liberated it's a it's a liberated experience and it's a liberated perspective on the challenge of being human so then it's only this is shift of perspective and shift of orientation as I was just been saying being our unique self being the human beings that we are with our own unique histories is no longer a burden to be overcome but it be but a great gift to be used for the sake of the evolution of the interior of the cosmos and the interior of the cosmos is subjectivity to consciousness the exterior of the cosmos is matter and energy so we realize we have inherent in being alive and being inherent in being aware of the fact that we're alive and and part and our and our and and our human experience has been produced by this cosmic unfolding we see it as the ultimate opportunity this great opportunity to consciously participate in creating the universe with the energy and intelligence that gave rise to it in the first place and that's a very it's it's a very liberating truth yeah you start smiling when you we talk about it so what does that force Andrew inside me wants to grab the old and say hey I did this okay I can tell myself it's digo wants to hold on to all my earlier successes but does this does this still have a point in evolution that I can be proud of what I did in the past or what I create it and still show to people well if we've done if we've done good works if we've done something that's positive then it sounds small but not insignificant way it's helped to make the universe a better place it's a it's appropriate to feel to feel good about it and to feel a sense of a sense of positive pride and a sense of accomplishment but one credits for is that also a good thing well it's not I think it's not good or bad it has to do with degree it has to do with defective weather how much our ego is identified with the need to be seen as being special so the compulsive the conscious and unconscious compulsive desire to see ourselves as being separate see ourselves are standing out from the other the others the the whole universe is the problem of narcissism so the need to see ourself as being separate standing out from the other the others the world in the whole universe is the problem so if we have done something that's very positive that in its own way makes the world a better place it's perfectly reasonable and appropriate to feel good about it but to the complete compulsive narcissistic need to see ourselves as being separate is what the problem is because because this the compulsive narcissistic need to see ourselves as being separate can either be because we may have thought that we did something great or in other market ways we can also want to be want to be recognized because we may feel that we've suffered in ways other people haven't we want our woodenness in our didn't unique challenges we face to be to be seen and to be appreciated by other people we want we want people to be able to appreciate the uniqueness of our story and not necessarily for the best reasons not necessarily for the most positive reasons yeah and so from the perspective of the freedom of enlightened awareness the source of freedom is always always comes from a position of letting go of everything letting go of everything yeah but then letting go of everything so oh look at all these great things I've done can you let go of that okay look at all these look at all this suffering I've endured this pain and suffering and misery can you let go of that can one and we let go of that so from the perspective of an of enlightenment to the teaching of enlightenment the only way to experience the ecstasy of the kind of freedom I've been speaking about in the present moment is always by letting go of everything and always by letting go of everything and always buying a little letting go of everything again and again and again and again everything positive and everything negative it's almost like imagine if you're you're on a plane it's like throwing keep on throwing out everything keep on throwing so you're always free you're always you're always starting from the same place which is a play a place of very of emptiness and clean sweet - yeah but in order to keep it clean we have to me we have to let go of pride self-importance the need to be seen as being special for whatever reason and also that includes all of our pain and all of our heart and all of our grievances and all of our anger and all of our bitterness and everything else that the ego has a as a whole story has a huge agenda built up but it's you guys a personal narrative based upon our own personal history and the unique nature or a story and the question is how invested Oh are we in that story and how attached to that story are we how identified with it are we so particularly and uniquely in an Enlightenment context we have to be willing to keep continue to drop it dropping it once isn't enough dropping it twice isn't enough we have to be willing and able to drop it every single day again and again and again but also physical should I throw away all my old photos and now things I got when I did no no they only the it's not it's the issues not what we know what we have materially or now not where we live or not who we know who we don't know it has to do with the places in which we're attached the places in which we're not free so so the quest of the question is to what degree are we able to let go again and again and again and again so it's not just an experience and letting go but it becomes a habit something that we're in the habit of just keeping on dropping the baggage dropping the baggage pride arrogance self-importance fear anger resentment do rituals have a place in that or do you well we we should do whatever we whatever we feel help us to let go again and again and again and again so if a ritual helped to facilitate our ability to keep dropping our baggage begins then and not picking it up again because sometimes people are relieved to drop baggage for like five ten minutes or an hour so within there when do they leave they want to pick it up it's a while because they don't want to be without it yeah they don't want to be without their story their unique story about their their personal identity which makes them feel unique and special and so the challenge of enlightenment is to persevere as I've been saying is to be able and willing to drop that over and over and over again to be with that to constantly be without it because because the minute we the minute we drop it it's gonna because of the because of habit because of conditions habits that position will constantly start regenerating itself even if we have very profound and miraculous deep experiences of unconditional freedom this disposition of the separate self will keep routes to reconstituting itself so the thing is that these very profound experiences which have so much potential for liberation we show us a perspective that's not ordinarily available to us and and we need to have enough of those experiences so we know it so we know what that but the position of freedom actually is with a posture for you to the position of freedom so that we can so we can learn how so we can know that to keep continually dropping everything and letting go of it and dropping it is is the only ideal position to take in relationship to our experience we're now with the Netherlands big non-duality following over here people who love to hear the story that I am nobody there is nothing there is no world only the self is real I'm guessing you're have a little different perspective on the neo-advaita view or how do you look at this well I think there's a very different big difference between existence and non-existence in between being and becoming so from the perspective of the deepest part of the self and the deepest part of reality itself from the perspective of the timeless formless empty void that existed before the creative process began nothing ever happened so from that from the vantage point of perspective of the ground of being nothing nothing ever happened because history hasn't started yet but from the perspective of the creative process that had a beginning in time fourteen billion years ago a lot has happened and a lot is happening fourteen billion years ago something came from nothing the universe burst into being and for absolutely nothing whatsoever energy and matter burst onto the scene and after about ten million ten billion years the the cosmos created conditions that made it possible for life to begin to emerge four billion years ago and over this four billion years ago I know in this four billion years the capacity of life to complexify and complexify and complexify creating the conditions that made it possible for mine to emerge about two hundred thousand years ago and from mind the capacity for the ultimately the capacity words for self reflective awareness or the capacity to be aware of being aware so at a certain point human beings gain the capacity to be aware of being aware awareness gain the capacity to be aware of itself and in that moment the universe for the first time being the capacity to bear witness to itself through these through these highly complex life forms called humans and that's and that's a can extraordinary it's an extraordinary evolutionary leap forward an extraordinary potential which when the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe has gained this miraculous capacity to bear witness to itself and to know itself and to consciously create itself so I would say that in the in the product and we look at the miracle of evolution in the creative process a lot seems to be happening a lot is happening and it's also giving rise to human beings with unique identities who have the capacity to become conscious co-creators with the energy and intelligence he created the universe in the first place so remember there's only one eye in the universe right there's only one eye in the universe I am and you are and we all are the only one that could have ever been it ultimately decided to create the universe in the first places if it's true there's only one eye which as my experience tells me is true this is all what almost greatest mystics and realizes has declared there's only one eye so it's quite something when you realize that one eye that either I that's one without a second chose to create the O's to create the universe in the first place of that odds so that I chose to take the leap from nothing to something from being to be coming from formlessness to form so in that leap in that creative evolutionary leap there was a dynamic leap into being something versus nothing but that's something of course is spirit in action this is something that took form is not separate from the nothingness from which it came it's just a change form and in that something Ness there there is as we've been discussing this this dynamic profound will to exist and in the will to exist there's a tremendous force and creative intensity so taking the position that taking the position that I don't exist that nothing ever happened alone is basically denying that the universe exists and has any substantial reality at all which is I think one would have to be a fool to say that because it obviously it does and not and not because the universe really does exist time-space informed us does exist and it's gay Pisco it's given rise to to me to me infinity almost in turn to create a potential of the creative process which has made it possible ultimately for the universe to bear witness to it so this is really happening it's not an illusion they tell me to dream uh-huh some teachers tell me it's it's just a dream now but remember what those teachers are saying is that from the perspective of the deepest dimension of reality the deepest dimension of the self it's never been born and never an end to the stream of time that's true but that's only one-half the pick hmm so from the perspective of what the Buddha called the deathless with the unborn yes nothing ever happened because it's because from that person from the perspective and that deepest part of themself there's no history so nothing has happened yet but that's only half the picture the other half of the picture is that timeless formless emptiness jumped and jumped through that jump through that hole and gave rise to the entire creative process that since there's in this infinite process of complexification so something's really happening here so problem is real Maya's real yeah but but the point is that the creative process is not Maya or it's not a loser II when you realize where it's come from because the creative process came from this primordial emptiness and is one one within and not separate from it the Buddha said the world of form in the world of formlessness of one and not to form and formlessness and wanted not to know emptiness and form or what not to but there's a third dimension to this picture which is the form the world of form in the world of formlessness of one and not two in the world of form is evolving and while the form is going somewhere that's the third and new component to the picture of reality so that energy and intelligence see that's compelling the world of form to evolve is in is the end is none less than eros or the energy and intelligence that created the universe in the first place which is that you could we could to use minton to use mythic mythic language it's the mind of God hmm so something's definitely happening here it's not that nothing something extraordinary profound that inherently meaningful is happening is happening here and when we realize that we it liberate us from postmodern tendencies towards nihilism that's how you see me what like uh nihilism well it doesn't have to be but it but it can create the it can create a world you're a perspective that can give rise to niala a nihilistic interpretation of interpretation of reality because you say nothing if you say nothing's happening then the next concludes - you can say was nothing means anything and when we start talking when we start living in a world that's free from meaning we started entering into a very dangerous right where nihilism begins to become the new shared agreement and that's a very dark place it's a very dark space and has and it's loveless silly sometimes reassures me that the message that's what I'm gonna mind I'm lying and worrying about a lot of stuff someone tells me it's all illusion it's o'mine mate it's not true well the thing is when we start to look more closely when we start to do spiritual practice and we start to meditate we begin to little scrutinize more closely the nature of the human experience as our own human experience it's pretty quickly becomes obvious to us that we tend to most of us tend to spend a lot of time wasting a lot of time thinking about things and worrying about things that are that are ultimately irrelevant and that just cause suffering to ourselves and ultimately if we don't drop them to other people also so I would I think it makes more sense to interpret Maya as as the word this so-called world of Maya occurs to us when we are when our worldview and our relationship to reality is based upon less than was is based upon purely relative interpretations to conscious experience because when we begin to dig deeper we begin to find out that there are actually deeper truths that aren't relative that actually are self existing that are an inherent part of reality itself and when we realize and recognize himself and begin to live in alignment with them it elevates our consciousness and elevates our cognition because we're living because we're literally living in alignment with without without what's with truths that are they're not relative that are absolute and then and it's like when that happens we start we wake up we suddenly realize there's there's an experience of depth and and a sense of being connected with life at the deepest level so we said then we see we see and feel the direct relationship between the relative appearance of a separate body and a separate mind and a separate personality and the infinite depth that we're speaking about here we live in the consciousness of that duck and then our relative bonding mind and personality begins to become animated by that depth because and it begins to reflect that depth so then that which is relative our body minds and personality begin to become mirrors for this non relative or absolute dimension of reality and people begin to feel it and recognize that there's something more going on here and it's immediately evident and if it did if it wasn't real people people people wouldn't have been speaking about this for thousands of years that there is an ultimate truth the knowledge of with changes absolutely everything it says that's true now as it was 5000 years ago four thousand years ago three thousand years ago and will be in the future and will be in future if I'm correct your your guru was pooja-ji yeah yes he certainly was yes and but you you differ on a subject of behavior in the world if I'm if I recognize is bright the details it doesn't matter how you behave in the world just plays out that karma if you think still your behavior in the world as a as to transform is that is that a right interpretation of what I read yeah I think I think what we do and why we do it is very important and I think learning how working on becoming more and more aware of how conditioned we are as human beings is a very big part of what it means is a transformative experience is all about so that takes work to begin to discover how deep how deeply conditioned we are as human beings takes and it takes a desire to want to know to actually want to see the truth and want to know the truth I want to wake up and not be sleepwalking anymore and that that means we have to be willing to take the time and make the effort to pay very close attention to ourselves and to the human experience as ourselves and that takes inspiration and we have we have to be willing to learn how to differentiate in our experience between what's because endurance and depth and truth and and begin to see all the ways in which we're just sleepwalking unconscious robots versus when we're actually awake and sentient being so connected with our heart and realize deeper potential so a big part of the transform it a big part of that having these transformative experiences is also the transformation of behavior and more and more importantly mode of motivation when we discovered a much deeper motivation to exist it transforms our transformed our reason to exist and our reason to make one choice versus another and and that's a very big part of what this is all about is the actual transformation is that is actually human transformation and transformation of motivation intention and and transformation of the motivations and intentions that are driving our actions that sounds like a lifelong journey it's it's an eternal journey eternal journey eternal but I'm still still if I'm lucky I'm 80 years on this planet as this form so how could it be eternal if it's eternal because the the creative process as far as we know at this point is about 14 billion years old so this moment can only exists in the way that it does now because of 14 billion years of progress that's led up to this moment so still when I watch the news I see people making the same mistakes over and over again well as as is often said evolution is messy messy it's messy and I believe evolution doesn't move in straight lines it tends to meander two steps forward one step yeah tends to meander but if you step far if you step back far enough from the whole for me from the creative processes when you step back far enough you will see that over long periods of time as it did there's a general developmental come to mind develop that's can be clearly seen if you stand back far enough so I so so I believe that the energy and intelligence that created the universe is created the universe that took that leap from nothing to something from being to be coming from formlessness to form is it's from a larger perspective just getting started because it's apparently taken the universe about fourteen billion years to give rise to comp to sentient life-forms with complex enough consciousness they can begin to cognize the whole thing that's only just happened more or less yesterday the evolution itself was only discovered about 150 years ago do we lose very reason that we've discovered this cosmic biological and cultural developmental process that is that we're all part and parcel of man is produced that has produced the selves that we are right now so if it seems it is so so if it's only when human beings become conscious of evolution that evolution becomes aware of itself that would seem to be a very important big leap forward in the cosmos so if that's if that capacity in the cosmos has just emerged after 14 billion years we could say that this whole process from this perspective of consciousness is just beginning to get interesting yeah so we have a long way to go along this process is really in its very early stages so 14 billion years seems like a long time from it from an anthropomorphic career point of view but if from the mind of a good friend of mine for the mind of God we could say it's not very long at all we're just getting going yeah some more adult much from the inviter will that's okay with you the one thing I love to talk about that so much last year's but the first time I heard of this was free will did I choose to come here and talk to you and who Cohen or did it just happen and does it do do I have anything for it to know the answer to that question and instead I answer that question there is an answer to that question is that all human beings have a measure of freewill there's a measure of a measure and that means a little bit a little bit and the reason we have a little bit is because we are because biologically we're deeply conditioned emotionally and psychologically we're deeply conditioned conditioned doesn't mean it's not a pejorative word it's just a fact emotionally and psychologically we're deeply conditioned so so many things that we think or want or don't want or feel like or dislike majority of our experience is coming from conditioned reactions that are largely happening on an unconscious level but we tend to think that we are much more conscious and much more free in our responses than we really are but the majority of our experience is shockingly conditioned and lacks the kind of freedom that you're speaking about but in but in and all that the more conscious we are the greater is this small measure of freedom to choose there's a measure of freedom and usually in relationship to the most important existential questions and choices in our lives if there's some if there's a measure of consciousness conscious awareness these choices are not going to be made from just knee-jerk reactions that come from culture or cultural background or from a psychological but will come from from having struggled with roots very important issues so so I think as we as we evolve and as we become more conscious this measure of freedom begins to grow but it's not going to grow up by itself the measure for freedom will grow in relationship to the degree to which we're willing to struggle with the come with the overwhelming complexity of the nature of the condition with the nature of how deeply and profoundly we're conditioned at so many levels so if we're willing to struggle with that work with that make really really make the effort to learn how to think objectively and to struggle through confusion and to deal with our own shadows and to struggle to see all the ways in which we rarely think for ourselves deeply profoundly about anything because we tend to just pretend to just absorb information and assume it's something we've come to learn our own with very few people actually have that kind of strength or independence so if we're really willing to struggle with the overwhelming uncertainty and insecurity involved with that since it's involved with making every true lis find ourselves this small measure of freedom or a radical independence the level of consciousness and cognition will grow it'll it'll grow and it will deepen it's like learning it's like learning how to it's like growing a new muscle it's the muscle Abzu which is really really developing a measure of autonomy or radical independence I've been in a very deep level of consciousness and cognition and it requires hard hard work and willing to struggle with the insecurities and with we have to be willing to question everything in a way that is very hard but if we have that kind of courage and we stand when I have to be willing to stick with it forever then this measure for you to choose is well we'll get grow it will become more genuinely and authentically independent than autonomous in our very being so you know as well as I do that when you to some people you meet they stand out and they strike you when you see when they speak and when they express their ideas and their thoughts and their perspective you realize they're speaking from from a place of depth and a sense of strength and autonomy it comes from having really dug very deep and struggled with a lot of difficult issues in order to come to a place of strength and clarity and a measure of objectivity but that's not that that's that's from pretends to be rather rare because most people are so lost in their condition experience that they haven't become truly Italian deeply autonomous or independent entities yet so you can train your free will muscle absolutely but but we we can train and realizing that it's very it's very usually very small yeah but but you see if there if there was no measure free well there'd be no way out no way out there'd be no way out there would be no there would be no there would be no freedom there would be no potential for freedom there'd be no potential for liberation there'd be no potential for transformation it'd be no help for us so all those books tell me everything happens according to the cosmic plan that can become an idea well it's got the cosmic but there is no cosmic plan oh there's there's no cut there's no there's no there's no cosmic plan if we stand back we look there are tendencies there's there's what's called the great evolutionary biologist called Rupert Sheldrake came up with this phrase called cosmic habits mm-hmm so there are cosmic habits or tendencies in the universe and you know the levels of energy and matter biology and mind these carbs cosmic habits and which which are tendencies to go in a particular direction all are all a result of the accumulated momentum of what's already happened so that so there so these cosmic happens create a tendency to go in a particular direction but no outcomes determined there's there's there's no predetermined outcome well good good because there is no cosmic being that's standing outside the creative process that hazard that has already written the script but still sometimes you can think like okay so there's only consciousness and consciousness is doing all those oh that's right you see the thing is if you say consciousness I'm with you when you say consciousness is doing anything then we have to say well what does that mean so for example when I in in my philosophy when I when I say if consciousness is doing something I related to this to this evolutionary driver in the universe which everybody realize exists mm-hmm don't they be that that's what's that there's a there's a momentum towards greater complexification in the cosmos that's that's obvious if we look and we see its we see it's there so then so then you can state so then we can say you can relate the fact that consciousness seems to be going in particular direction and then if you begin to look closely we could we can begin to see the reasons why and it's usually always related to what happened before that and before that and before then before that which creates a certain tendency evolving yeah and then you know definitely but then when when when when when consciousness becomes aware of itself and when mind becomes aware of itself is awakened into consciousness itself and the capacity to the capacity to make choices enters into the picture then that's when human consciousness realizes its own divinity because that because you realize the creative creative potential the leading edge of the creative potential in the in in in in this cosmic unfolding is in our hands it doesn't exist outside our hands and then the whole issue of freedom and choice and what's made in motor motivating us to make the choices that we are suddenly becomes all-important in a way whether we even imagine before cuz then think the capacity to make choices realizes work the choices were making to define the destiny in the future of the interior of the holy universe and then and so then late so then to have the capacity to make choices to have the capacity to make conscious choices suddenly becomes overwhelming the implications of what it means to have the capacity to make choice it's no longer a huge burden but the significant becomes the significance of being able to make conscious choices becomes the ultimate expression the ultimate potential expression that which is sacred in the universe and in the world itself and and and the relationship between the awakening to the to the greater and greater capacity to make free choices in the will of God begin to the relationship between those two begins to unfold like a flower opening right before us and then suddenly being being ourselves being a human being who realizes all this in the word it suddenly becomes enormous and this is just this this transcendence is small even small he's on the small self sense in the most extraordinary way just it blows it out of the water and suddenly we feel under an enormous sense of responsibility and obligation in being in being here and being human and knowing all these things and have and knowing this and feeling great such a responsibility for what's possible so it's not like the Dutch philosopher Spinoza once said that God throws a stone and the stone says I'm flying it's that that phrase that stuck with me and you can replace the word God with consciousness and then think consciousness is just moving everything yes but of course they're part part of part of what's unfolding is arbitrary if a part of part of unfolding is arbitrary and part part of what's unfolding and very much has to do with the combination of these cosmic habits which are tendencies to go in a certain direction here and then in form gradually more and more informed choices that come from my minds and souls that have been more awakened and more awakened since being means marcotte of context and more conscious of the complexity involved in the whole process and the aspiration to take responsibility for as much as for as much of it as possible so let's say to take the example of the driver seat am i sitting at the wheel would God next to me we both have to wheel in our hands or well your websites all about non-duality yes so so so what we're calling God here he's not separate from you remember I said before there's only one eye in the cosmos I am and you are the only one that there could ever be yeah there's only one so that one that existed for eat for eternity before the universe was created shows at a certain point to give rise to the creative process and so when you experience when you feel the I sense and I feel that I sense were both feeling than one that I sensed in which there is only one eye there's not two and then eye is not merely your personal ego would you be a personal identity and your personal stole but it's at a much deeper level non separate from the energy and intelligence that shows to create the universe 14 billion years ago and so the more you realize that the more you realize that the more you awaken to that truth the more you start to feel in awe of what of what it means to be human being who begins to awaken to who he or she really is I am and you are the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe awakening to itself through the body mind and personality of Andrew or each and every one of us that's who you really are so that so that cosmic thing so this cosmic self awakens to itself through this form and then this form this form of seen is seen not as the end but as a vehicle through which the creative process can take responsibility it's on direction and that completely displaces the the the the small-minded self-centered egos orientation to what it means to live my life for it for me and for the slave to the fears and desires of the small self you discover a cosmic identity I cast my identity had constant has cosmic motives the cosmic waters are realized through this small vehicle and that's when that's one like this one what it means to be alive opens up to indeed to the infinite you know so I've been talking to exactly yeah well there is only but this but the thing is that if the ultimate realization enlightened awareness is the recognition of the there's only one not two there's only one anodd five oh yeah there's only one and not two but that means that with the feeling of I is that one without a second if we don't look too closely we assume it's our ego but it really if you looked more deep you see none of that's not really my ego that's the one that's the one self pretending no it's the one self that existed before the universe was created so oneself that chose to create the universe and so it's the only it's the only stuff that they could ever be so what I always like to ask people if if you believe it does only wanted not to and you realize that that's that you are the only one that there ever could have been that that there is that means you're the only one that could have made the choice to create the entire universe which is if that's true that means where we're going and we're gonna get there is responsibility who who who's that who else's responsibility could be so of course that's completely overwhelming but that's the ultimately the truth an evolutionary orientation to enlightenment desert to spiritual liberation we wanted to get to grapple with because the implications are overwhelming there are all the best reasons for all the right reasons because it forces us to question this is the small minded identity of the separate self which has a totally personal agenda in relationship to the gift of being human and so when you have this kind of realization that agenda the small self is displaced literally displaced and this cosmic self sense begins to emerge in our soul in our heart in our mind it begins to vibrate who reveals itself and we become a completely different person a person who's awake to who he or she truly is I am the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe awakening to itself for the body mind personally personality of my unique separate self and there's a and the personal narrative gets displaced in the most profound way and so that's too much for a lot of people because it's just too big it's just too radical it's too outrageous it's soo unthinkably outrageous could it really be true me little old me say yeah that's who you really are if you have the courage to face it do you have the courage yet or do you need a few more lifetimes to live through this nightmare of a personal separate a separate existence you want to suffer through this form or before you have the courage to embrace the unthinkable implications of who you really are and the answer is most people aren't ready for you there's too much it's too overwhelming too much of what freedom I think the enormity of the implications of the truth of what that means right now most people can handle it it's just because that's true so much of what I've thought about Who I am and who everyone else is it's all read these are just partial truths they're not absolute truths so it's it's frightening and/or it's thrilling and frightening at the same time it can't be handled huh can it be absolutely when we have to be ready we have to be happy because as as as in all as when genuine to genuine enlightenment is real we have to we have to be at that point and around evolution as an individual when we're ready to let go let go of everything personal story belongings family well it's letting let it we have to be willing to let go of everything doesn't we have to walk out on our family or anything but we have to be willing to let go of an unenlightened relationship to what it means to be human so it means all the places that were attached and unfree have to be we have to go and let go of all of it we have to be able to let go of all of it we have to really let it go up all of it as we said at the beginning of the over and over and over and over again no it's like continually lightening our load dropping so that doesn't necessarily have anything with walking out on anybody but it has to do with a liberated relationship - what is a liberated relationship - what is lip-read relationship to being in a relationship liberated relationship to being a mother and a father and a sister and a brother to being a businessman or a postman or a musician or an artist or a scientist and liberated relationship to being human and and and on every level as much as much as possible based upon the OD actual awakening to know who we really are who I am and you are the energy and intelligence that created the universe and is creating the universe awakening to through the body my purse to that personality of myself from yourself that's the truth and then in that column in a cosmic perspective we embrace all these other lesser dimensions of ourself held in this huge embrace this huge cosmic embrace and then we're not living us we're not living a small life anymore living a big life for very big reasons because we have no choice anymore because the energy and intelligence that created the universe is depending on us because if we're not gonna do it who else is gonna do it so that's what you're telling the people yeah yeah over and over again do you do any practices with them do you do you okay yes yes but this seems like a very individual approach to everyone because not everyone is at the same stage or with the same trouble sort of saying attachments how does that work in a group like this well most people find this message very inspiring yeah it is of course but it'll work sorry the work you have to do yourself or can you help with or yeah yeah yeah but I mean the point is when the point is that most people find it very inspiring and when because what I'm what I'm sharing with people amongst a lot of things is a new narrative it's a new story it's a new it's a new grand narrative a new big perspective so that's not only inspiring for the unique individual but it becomes inspiring on a collective level because when you read when you begin to embrace a teaching in a perspective like this and and and in the context of other people who are sharing and embracing a huge perspective like this when the perspective is shared it gets bigger stress role it starts growing and then you realize that even that's sharing this unique perspective in consciousness with others the thing itself starts to deepen and grow and become more powerful and then that is its own form of ecstasy that's its own form of liberation and it's not that's its own unique thrill because then you then you get pulled out of your the small and another it's again another way to get some pulled out of the small world of the separate self and then so when you share with other people you're sharing kind of it's it's a utopian it's it's utopian ideal - utopian promise which most people are terribly be reluctant to embrace this kind of big thinking because it's unheard of I mean it's thought of being but when you act when you give yourself the freedom to do it just literally there's a feeling of lifting off like you're in a balloon that's lifted leaving the earth behind and because you're you leave the earth behind your side see everything from a completely different vantage point mostly but a lost and lost in the in the story down there they wake up can't you stand there like they're in it they're lost and they're lost in the crowd they're lost in a place where everything is so pedestrian the perspective of some pedestrian but when you take off in this balloon and you do some other people you start seeing oh look look around you see everything in so much context and in the context of so much infinite potential it changes everything when you share that you're positive that pure excitement of the possible other it's the greatest form of exhilaration you don't need any drugs for that well this is his sound the the the the awakening to this creative impulses its own because is its own is becomes a source of your joy yeah yeah I have a taste of what you're pointing yet so some people call it like a collective hypnosis or something and I think oh we all start believing you but that's not well now but I'm what I'm sharing I'm sharing a perspective and I'm sharing your truth I'm not asking anybody to believe everything I'm something I seem to consider what I say and look into it right but if but what I'm saying is I'm teaching a very rational form of spiritual enlightenment I'm not asking maybe anybody to take my word for anything just consider what I'm saying on its own terms and see what happens and and if you do that honestly something your consciousness will begin to expand as a result in your real and you'll find that there's a reason why and it's beyond the word skew you could make me sit here for half an hour and transmit this also or yeah we could sit quietly but I don't think that we work very well it's what you do that with the people who come and visit you here in that well yeah I can and I do and I like to do that yeah I prefer to sit in silence with people if I have a lot of time with them but still the thing I most enjoyed about this talk was besides the information was used like a little childish smile on your face which tells which tells me which tells me this what you're talking about is this wonder in your eyes or this expression well thank you yeah well I mean every word yeah thank you anything any practical information we have to add to this is there some new stuff coming out of you but it won't be ready for about another year and traveling and teaching about nine months of the year at this point yeah and stay tuned to Ludlow a lot more coming Andrew Cohen dot-com org nope calm and rukon calm n Cohen calm we'll put it underneath to say thanks for this quick thank you did a good job I admire your courage it being utterly spontaneous yeah that take that takes a lot of courage that's beautiful it's the thing I love to talk most about it's still fascinates me but did you do you feel a little bit of what I'm saying yeah do you feel the liberating potential you know yeah yeah yeah we could go on for another hour but there's some people waiting and there's next time yeah there's one of the two days it has nice sweater and a homeland so we have to go outside Thanks thank you