Craig Hamilton: Conversations from the Heart - Honouring Andrew Cohen through our Stories

Welcome to Conversations from the Heart, honoring Andrew Cohen through our stories. My name is Daniela Boomertor. I was a student of Andrew's for 17 years, and for the past 9 years, I had the privilege of living and working alongside him. This service is a tribute to his life, his teaching, and the revolutionary fire he sparked in so many of us. Through these intimate conversations, we remember not only the man, but the depths of transformation he catalyzed in our lives. May these stories keep his legacy alive, honoring the sacred thread that connects us, and allowing his voice to continue resonating through ours. So, welcome, Craig, to these Conversations from the Heart. Very happy that you agreed to do this, and it's the 10th conversation that I'm having with you, and yeah, it's an honor to have you here. And Thank you. These conversations I didn't prepare them with questions. It's not an interview or anything, but what I did, in the same way in every conversation, is just ask the the first question, which is an obvious one. How did you How did you meet Andrew? And how did you end up staying with him for quite a while? So, what happened there at that point in time? Oh, okay. Yeah, well, um let's see. So, I met Andrew when I was 26 years old. I was uh kind of had decided, based on some early spiritual experiences I had had, I had by by that time decided to really devote my whole life to my spiritual path, and I was um I had traveled some in Asia at that point and and spent some time in monasteries and meditation retreats and things. But I had I was It was very interesting. I was in uh northern Thailand at a staying at a monastery doing meditation and there was this and I was on my way to go to India on this long kind of trip, pilgrimage. And this is I was you know, I had take just finished university like a year before that. And uh I'm sitting in this up meditating all night in this monastery and it's thunder and lightning and storming out. And all of a sudden uh in the in this middle of all this I got this strong like communication that said your your teacher is not in the East. You're not going to find what you're looking for in the East. Wow. And it's how it you know, I I can't remember where or it was like, yeah, it wasn't that you're going to find him in America, but it was that you're not going to find him in India. Not you. And it was so uh compelling to me that I I kind of believed it and I thought, well, I'm looking for you know, spiritual awakening and if if I'm if my India trip is not where it's going to happen, then I why I'm wasting my time. And I ended up changing my plans and going back to the US and I was living in I was living in Portland, Oregon at the time and I So I I came back and I was there and just just working and living there and doing my spiritual practice and I went into a spiritual bookstore one day and was thumbing through different spiritual books, New Renaissance Bookshelf in Portland, Oregon. And uh I saw this book, Enlightenment is a Secret on the shelf and by Andrew. Yep. And I picked it up and I started thumbing through it and reading passages. And I had heard Andrew's name because when I was planning to go to India, I had asked another friend who had been to India, like, "What tell me about the spiritual scene?" And he had mentioned, "Oh, there's this guy named Andrew Cohen who teaches sudden enlightenment and is doing retreats in Bodh Gaya a lot." Mhm. So, I had heard that only, you know, his name, which maybe prompted me to pick up the book. But I picked up the book, read a few, you know, stayed there reading it for 10 minutes or so. And there was just such a directness to the message in the book, the the direct awakening is available to all of us here and now. It is not something that needs to take our whole lifetime or many lifetimes. Mhm. And I could just feel the this force coming through the words. And yet I had been much more oriented toward a much more gradual path that had lots of different a kind of Indian North Indian tradition that had a lot of different levels to it, and you had to progress here and there and there and there. And and so this I was arguing with this book, and I put it back on the shelf. And I left the store, and for about 2 days I was just kind of arguing with Andrew in my mind. Like, you know, how could it be so direct? What about karma? What about, you know, different developmental levels and you know, had my But that But it was so gripping me, I finally said, "I'm going to go and buy the book." And I went back to the store and I bought his book. And I remember as I left the bookstore, I had this two experiences simultaneously. One was this experience of a huge weight being lifted off my shoulders. I just felt light. And at the same time I felt another kind of pressure on the center of my chest, like something the challenge of or something was coming. And I went home and I had this book now, and I would just spend all my free time reading the book and meditating and I was just getting this incredible um transmission off the book essentially. Feeling it was just awakening something in me and I was starting to just have this very profound spiritual opening just from reading this book over and over. So I after probably less than a week with just this me with this book I sent a a letter I think yeah I This was long before email. Yeah. So I sent an actual letter um to the publisher address cuz there was no information in there to to learn more about Andrew Go here or to find out about Andrew Go here. There was nothing in this book back then. So it was just an address of a publisher and I sent a letter to the address saying I don't know but I wrote it to Andrew and I said I don't know if this will find you. I hope that letter gets to you. But I feel like you're my teacher and you know I'm I've been reading your book and um I I want to awaken and and I I want to meet you and you know that I didn't know where he was. I didn't know he had a community. I didn't know anything. There was no internet. You couldn't just look people up and find out about them. What year was that? Do you remember what year that was? Just to locate it in time a little bit. Yeah it was around uh 92. Yeah. Around 1992 or 91. I can't remember. It was right around then. Yeah I remember. Um So yeah I think it was spring of 91 maybe or 92. Anyway. So So I'm reading this book and oh yeah so so I wrote Andrew this this note and then I get a a letter back from one of his students from Michelle Hemingway and and she said oh Andrew got your letter and was very happy to read it and wanted to let you know his that his that he's going to be teaching in Seattle next weekend. Mhm. And I was living in Portland, which is pretty close to Seattle. So, I was like, "Oh, well, that's that's good timing, you know?" And and he invites you to come and attend the teachings he's giving there. And and uh in fact, sent me some information to connect with people in Seattle who were hosting it and maybe try to find accommodation and things like that. So, So, yeah, I And and and then promptly, now that I knew I had contact, I ordered all all of his other books and I ordered a bunch of his tapes and I started like consuming all that before I met him. And then um was just feeling like I was in this field with with a guru in a sense, you know, before I even saw him. And then I remember going up to driving up to Seattle for to spend like three or four days where he was going to be teaching every night. And I had this powerful experience where I I was just parking outside the Satsang Hall where he was going to be teaching. And it was like a few hours before the event. And I saw these two guys like carrying boxes and things into the hall. They were doing set up. And as soon as I saw them, I felt like a lightning bolt hit me and just kind of just almost knocked me out. I just was like Yeah. Wow, you know, I just this powerful energy. And they were turned out were close students of his who were there doing the set up. And you know, that And so, then I proceeded that night, you know, I sat down and waited early, got in the front row. Yeah, I sat there. And you know, and and I could just feel when he came out, just the the force of enlightened consciousness in the in coming from him was so powerful. And I was feeling it so strongly that I just, you know, it was it was totally overwhelming to my system. And I So, I stayed there the whole time and I I I asked him all my spiritual questions. I was one of those like every time he So, that was I had another thing to ask him. I was trying to really make sense of it all, and I was really hooked in, and I I didn't sleep for the whole 4 days I was there cuz every time I would lie down to sleep, I just felt like I was plugged into the wall. There was just this electric current running through my nervous system. And I was just felt like all my questions were being answered, and I was finally understanding all the spiritual books I had read in my own experience, and just I remember leaving this this kind of to drive back to Portland, and just having this very distinct feeling that my whole world had changed, that everything my everything I knew had changed. Like I was in an in a completely altered state of consciousness. But, I was also aware that I could lose it all in a second. You went out of that, too? That's a lot. aware I was aware. Like, I'm in this, but even like as I would interact with people in the world, I could feel how I was interacting from a different world to the ordinary world, and the ordinary world could pull me back into it just like that. So, I felt like I had to protect it. Like, I have to protect what's opening up. And I promptly made all these massive life decisions. I I uh I quit my job. I I ended a relationship that I had gotten into. It was fairly new relationship, so it wasn't a long-term thing, but I I just kind of decided I was going to change everything, and and made plans to go and follow him around Europe for the summer where he was going to be leaving for in a month and teaching all over Europe, and Yep. Yep. I just uh pulled the plug on my whole life essentially, and and uh went off to follow him around. And anyway, so that's how I met him. Oh, that's that's that's an amazing story. As as they all are. I mean, I think I have heard so many stories and it's each and every one is kind of mind-blowing. He he had such a transmission when when you connected to him when Yeah, and of course that's an interesting transmission, such an interesting thing in itself, you know, having been on the path so long now and been also teaching for so long, you know, so there's something there's something kind of subjective about transmission or specific, meaning I'll you know, I've gone to see certain spiritual teachers and felt zero transmission from them and thought, "Oh, they don't have any awakening. They're just speaking from their mind. I don't feel any higher consciousness." And then other I had another person tell me, "Oh, I went to that teacher and they have such a powerful transmission." Yeah, yeah. And I was like, "Wow, I didn't think that I didn't sense anything," you know, and and I know some people would go to Andrew in those early years and feel like, "Oh, I don't get this guy at all. I don't resonate with him at all. I don't feel anything at all." And meanwhile, you know, I walked in there and was just lit up, you know, lit up like a 100,000 W. Yeah, and I think that's something that that that happened during the 39 years Andrew was teaching that that that it literally split the audience into the ones that felt fully connected and felt his vibration and the other ones that more or less walked away saying, "Yeah, no, this guy is not the real thing." Yeah. I always felt like he he really it was quite black and white. The I love him or or I don't like him at all thing. Interesting. Not even connected to the crash or anything, just how people reacted to him. Yeah. But yeah, he he elicited strong responses. For sure. Yeah. One way or one way or the other. Yeah, so then you you traveled with him and uh Yeah, I spent the summer Yeah, we went He was in like London for a I don't know, a few weeks, and then we were in Amsterdam for a few weeks, and and we were in in Switzerland, where you are in in Bern. He was teaching for a while, and we just kind of bounced around, and and uh by the end of the summer, I was just, you know, cuz cuz I think for me what that summer represented was an opportunity to get to know his students and his community because you know, if you're an ardent young seeker looking for your Yeah. teacher and community, you know, you want to feel like it's happening for the students, too, not just like, oh, I have some powerful figure, but everyone around him is like you know, just in devotion minor or something. Yeah. You know, and he had and I I was so impressed with the people around him. I was so impressed with the student body. I made friends with them over the summer, and I just had so much respect for them. They all seemed to be really you know, cuz Andrew you know, on the one hand, from early on, was very much about this radical awakening here and now, but you know, at fairly early in his teaching, he also started to really tune into this this the need for our awakening to manifest in our actions, and the need to like be an exemplary human being and to have extraordinary character, and so he was pushing on all of those things, which was kind of unusual at that time in in the uh kind of history of East meets West spirituality there because there at that time, there were all these teachers of non-duality a running around doing satsangs, and kind of neo-advaita Vedanta. And they weren't talking much about that. They were just saying, you know, just awakening take care of it. It's all a dream and you have to wake up. The world doesn't really matter. Your actions and behavior won't even change when you awaken. You'll just have a different, you know, outlook on things and that was a kind of popular teaching, you know, around that time. And so Andrew just for whatever reason, what he was tapping into, I I would I would argue it was just a a deeper, more authentic, you know, more whole, more complete kind of a way thread of awakening that then he was really calling for that. So I felt that in the students. I thought, "Wow, these are people who are really striving to walk their talk, to live the teachings, to be exemplary human beings, which just intuitively made sense to me. I I never could understand those other teachings that were so divorced from how we live our lives. It had always seemed to me that the only awakening that could matter would be one that would transform us as a human being and we would be like a model human being, be somebody who who others would learn from and and look up to and and be inspired by. So yeah, so by the end of that summer I I felt like, "Wow, well, this I have a lot to learn from Andrew and I have a lot to learn from these people." And and um I decided I asked Andrew if I could come and join the community that he had in Marin County, California at that time where people were living in kind of communal houses all over Marin and meeting for gatherings at the Mill Valley Community Church or the Corte Madera Yoga Center and and Andrew was giving teachings there, but there were also just a lot of community activities happening and group meditations and different kinds of of gatherings to talk about the teachings. And so he said, "Okay." And so I the end of that summer I moved to Murray Inn and got deeply involved in his community and and just loved it. I mean, I just felt so at home. I felt like I had found my my tribe, my people. I was so inspired to just meet all these people who were so wholehearted about their spiritual path and and willing to give themselves to something difficult cuz Andrew was not an easy teacher. He was not a soft teacher. He didn't have you know, I mean, we can a lot of that we could say maybe to a fault and I think he learned that in the end maybe. But But, you know, he was very, you know, exacting, very demanding. And this So anybody who was willing to go and live there and apply themselves to it with somebody who was willing to kind of have their feet put to the fire and be challenged and challenged again and again to to evolve, to awaken, to become aware of our impact on each other and and to really cultivate a a deeper spiritual conscience. Um so, yeah. So I dove in. How would you How would you describe how the his radical nature translated into into the guru-student relationship? How How would you describe it? Like How How did you experience it as a as a student? What was it what he what made him so sincere but also so radical and so demanding, I I would say, no? It's a That's a great question. It's a Yeah, it's very interesting cuz he was I Where it came from was it was that Just give me a second to think about how to Mhm. it. So, he became aware early on and I probably through his own experience, but then definitely through his initial experiences of teaching and working with people, he became aware that there was this this choice everyone was making. And you know, and I don't mean everyone, but I mean that what he became aware that once a person has had an awakening to let's just say their true self Yeah. beyond the mind and ego. Once a person has had an awakening to that, they like he kind of had this acute awareness that well, from that moment on they're always kind of choosing whether to align with that and be true to that or whether to just give in to the momentum of their conditioned self and ego structure with all of its defenses and Yeah. distortions. And and you know, there's like this is a kind of one of these it's true and not true kind of things, but he was really aware of this thing about choice and he was really and it was like he So, when he would when someone would have an awakening around him and he would see oh, this person gets that they're seeing it, he would feel like oh, they're meeting me. We're together. We're one self now. They're they're awakening to the same self that I'm awake to and we're one. We're together in this one higher consciousness now. And then and he would feel like okay, so now this is like how it will be. This person will stay here and I'll and we'll now meet here and and progress from here. We can move forward together. Yeah. From this awakened self. And then he would see that same person the next day, forget it. And or to you know, and from his point of view, turn away from it. Yeah. Cuz he had this radical kind of acute insight that like well, once you've seen it, you could always access it and it's a choice if you don't and you're just giving in to the weaker lower parts of yourself. And he even saw it as a kind of moral um imperative to stay awake. And he would feel like well, once you've seen the truth of who you are and of how reality is, you're morally obligated to stay true to it, to stay awake, to stay aligned with it, to do whatever you need to do. And if you don't, you're actually betraying yourself and you're like betraying God and you're betraying the guru. You're betraying Andrew because he he revealed it to you. So, and this is where things you know, again, started to get tricky because he on the one hand there's like you can see the purity of that view, that absolute stance. And he would, you know, look at everyone through that lens and therefore he would expect everyone to meet him in their highest potential. And when they didn't, he would be very unhappy with you. And he would And so there was a kind of pressure in in being in relationship with him to stay true to this deeper thing. And And so see, here's the here's the where I'm saying it's tricky cuz when it worked, it was beautiful and it was it was powerful and you couldn't imagine anything more direct than what I just described, right? It's life is binary. You're either awake or asleep and you've shown that you can be awake and I'm I'm awake and I'm going to hold you to it. Let's go. And then, you know, you're going to fumble around and struggle with your insecurities and I'm going to hold hold you to not go there and stay true to this, but you know, not everyone could do it and not everyone could do it very consistently. And so it's like when it worked, it was this powerful like um type you know rope, you know, cord between you and and the teacher between you know, between me and Andrew and he would be like pulling on me and I'd be pulling you know, and we'd you know, be moving together. But when it you know, when it didn't work, people would really tend to fragment and kind of fall apart because the pressure was so great and you know, what we what we know about human development now is that you know, it people are at all different places on the path. People have all different kinds of capacities to live in that radical of a way right now. And that just having an awakening doesn't give you all the tools and capacities you need to stay awake. And that even though there's a purity and a truth to the view that there's always a choice and it's a I still and I encourage people to lean into that because it's the most it's a it's the most empowering stance you can take even to yourself. To say, oh, what do what do I want? To boil it all down to what do I want? And am I willing to to give up whatever's in the way and am I willing to do whatever's required to stay awake to my true self. Like that is a beautiful empowering relationship to yourself and to your path and to your life if you can handle it. Like you know, there's this I was have liked this quote from Brian Swim where he tells the story of of the hawk and the mouse and how the mouse wishes the hawk would slow down and and and lose its eyesight so that the mouse wouldn't have to run so hard and and hide and be so good at hiding and running. But that if that happened, the mouse would gradually lose its capacity and become weak and and frail and then and all of its its, you know, agility and strength. And you know, and and he he and always ends that story saying, you know, we should wish each other as much stress as we can creatively assimilate. I wish you as much stress and pressure as you can creatively assimilate cuz that's going to keep you on your evolving edge. But how much stress and pressure can anyone creatively assimilate? And it's you know, if we if we flip too far in one direction and say, well, the person, you know, I can't handle very much, you know, I'm I'm delicate, I'm weak, I'm I'm wounded, I really need to be, you know, I I can only handle a little bit. Well, which part of the self is that? That's the that's kind of the weakest part. That's the most conditioned part. On the other hand, if you've got somebody saying, do it all right, you need to be able to meet it right now or, you know, or you're a failure. Yeah. That's going to, you know, for a lot of people, they're going to just collapse and fragment into those weaker parts of the self, which is a which happened a lot around Andrew, you know, he had a lot of people falling by the wayside over the years who just couldn't meet that intensity and and didn't have and it wasn't all just, you know, I mean, he was very black and white about it, but it wasn't that he was like, you know, you're either doing it today or I'm kicking you out. It wasn't that intense. It wasn't that extreme, but there was a because it it was a kind of moral he saw it as a moral imperative. There was a kind of moral stance then it was like, there was just so much shame, I think, that people would feel when they couldn't meet the demand he was placing on them that they would then collapse into that that shame body, really, that that Yeah, yeah. part of the self and and didn't have a you know, and Andrew would would try to create structures and support for people, but I think in a fairly limited way. Like I don't think he re You know, I I I've heard I heard from him, you know, in much later years after the community fell apart and and, you know, he went through a hard time that he started to realize he should have been more uh more respectful of people's different developmental capacities and much more made more room for people to struggle and not hold them through in such a moral kind of lens and and not push so relentlessly on people who were already struggling. Like I know I know later in in life he got he had more started to reflect on some of those some of those maybe oversimplified lenses that he had early on that again were drawn from his own radical experience and and again he had students who could meet it. And so then he would say, "Well, look at so-and-so, you know, they're meeting it and they're able to do it and they can do it. Everyone can do it." And that was kind of a mistake cuz, you know, if you if you like look at some of the other traditions that have uh you know, that really worked intensively with non-dual awakenings and and authentic awakening over centuries and really studied how it played out in different human beings like like Vajrayana Buddhism probably is the most elaborated kind of enlightenment system that we have and they will they will, you know, break down all the different types of students very clearly and say there are certain type of student who can understand the the awakened view the first time they hear it and they can, you know, and they they can, you know, practice from that from that point forward and there are but the but that's a very small percentage of students and then they'll say and then there's another type of student who can you know, after a certain amount of practice has receptivity and can open to the view and then they can, you know but they'll have like all these different levels of student and they identify them and then they you know and they say there's different remedies and different practices for these students and it's not just like so I think you know Andrew didn't have the benefit of a tradition. I I want to ask you something because I also feel that's all true and and I I I know that Andrew did see in the last years that he didn't make these distinctions and that he didn't really see what was possible for for the different students. He he was very aware of that. But I want to get to another point. Wouldn't you say that most students of Andrew's came to him because his radical nature was so attractive? Well, it's very interesting if you go around it's so you know I so you just to kind of put my answer in context. So I was with Andrew 13 years. I was super close to Andrew. We worked together on our magazine. I often spent like 8 hours a day with him working on the magazine, talking about other students, helping think about how to guide the community. You know, we were very close. Yep. And and I was someone who for whom I fall was felt the teachings really worked. I never felt like they didn't work for me. I felt like I was able to really apply myself all the pressure he put on me. I was I was ultimately able to meet and grow in response to it. So I was able to creatively assimilate the incredible stress he would put me under. You know, so I was one of those people but I left because I became incredibly frustrated with what I felt was him relating to every you know, the old when you when you the only tool you have is a hammer every problem you see every problem as a nail. I felt I would see Andrew not everyone's not the same. People aren't going to respond to just being put under more pressure. People are being hurt and there are ways you could teach them and help them and he wouldn't listen and we had a real, you know, fall eventually had to split cuz I just felt like he is not receptive to feedback around how he's teaching. He was He was receptive to a lot of feedback and we should talk a little bit about my whole role with him at the magazine cuz I got to see a side of him that a lot of people never did. But cuz he had a lot of receptivity, but around how he was teaching he would always just no. It's this way or that way. So anyway, so I left. I'm just going to contact so so I left there what is now about 20 years ago. Yeah, 20 years ago I left and um 10 years later the or so the, you know, the whole community disbanded and fell apart cuz some of his students put pressure on him and he you know, wouldn't wouldn't let them give him feedback essentially and it all collapsed. But but so what's been interesting for me just even in the last few years is a few opportunities I've had to interact with people who were at various stages with Andrew in his community, you know, like And what's been interesting to me is to kind of get a sense of how many different types of experiences people had. See cuz I was kind of thought cuz I was in sort of a I don't know, for lack of a better word, a kind of elite group in the community of advanced students who really were able to apply the teachings and also worked closely with him and could handle even that cuz even that was quite challenging to be close to him personally, right? People You had to kind of meet him or it wouldn't work. So so I was in this group and and I think I had assumed a lot of uniformity about why people came, what their experience was, kind of like Andrew did. Andrew that Andrew would have said what you said. Yeah, everybody came to me because they could sense the radical nature and they felt they were ready for it. But when you really talk to people you go, "No, some people came because they just felt this incredible heart connection to Andrew and he cuz his transmission was so powerful. There were a lot of people who just felt opened up to this current of love. And they just felt, "Oh, I'm just feeling this the love of the universe. I'm feeling the love of God and I want to be close to it." And other people said they felt it in the community. They could feel, "I want to be part of this community of people who are so open and sincere and and you know, so I my experience of talking to more and more people is people came kind of for different reasons. Not everybody really understood the radical nature of it. Um and you know, again because people had I think a lot of different capacities cuz people are all different and and um and you know, so I think that's true for some you know, I mean certainly to some degree everybody could feel the radical call but like to understand the implications of that and what it would be Yeah, that that wasn't really possible, no? I mean you couldn't you couldn't really know what you're getting into. feel, "Oh, wow, this is radical. This is great." But you have no idea maybe how much it's going to demand from you and how much you're really going to have to let go of and really going to have to change. Yeah, and when you think you have let go of almost everything that he still sees something that is not let go of and and pushes you on that on that on that place, yeah. Yes, are you willing to just sort of stay in the fire which you know, we should you know, guru or no guru, if we want to live an authentic life, all of us want to find a way to stay on our own edge to stay to keep seeing whatever's next whatever blind spot is there and maybe wasn't there before but crept in over time or what you know, we have to always be humble, always listening, learning, seeing where we're making mistakes, growing, you know, and And Andrew was just someone who really held that for people, enforced that, and pushed that, and created a community that did that, you know, it wasn't just him, it was all of us co-creating this powerful powerful field of kind of calling everyone to rise up. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to share with you something that I find interesting because you described so beautiful the black and whiteness of true self versus ego, yeah, like and I know that before the crash he taught that ego and authentic self or true self never meet, they are kind of two parallel tracks that never meet, yeah. So, but this this for me is the most significant change in in the last year since he taught again. Mhm. He taught that aspect significantly differently, especially in the last five years, by encouraging his students to develop a a really stable positive ego. Mhm. And he he described the authentic self much more as a state, which makes a lot of sense, a state of awakening that wants to fall onto a beautifully developed positive ego. So What did he mean by positive ego in that sense? Cuz the way he had previously defined ego was more as a pathology. Yes, and that's what I'm that's what I'm bringing it up because in his last years he split the ego in negative ego and positive ego. And the negative ego was everything that had to do with I feel victimized, poor me, arrogant me, everything that yeah, that contracts us in ourselves, whereas positive ego, he he encouraged his students to develop a positive self-esteem and also a a belief in in our own worthiness for enlightenment, like in the in the most positive sense. And that would all sit in the positive ego. Like like spirit to develop spiritual self-confidence. So that the awakening actually can fall on a on a beautifully developed individual that then can shine into the world and actually be be of of service to the world, yeah. Well. I felt that that was a really great uh change and improvement of his teaching. Yeah, I mean if you if you look at that kind of through a traditional and it kind of matches how like I was saying the kind of deeper enlightenment traditions related to it. Like they would again, I was mentioning Tibetan Buddhism for a moment, but you know, typically in those traditions to be even get access to the higher Dharma teachings, you have to do all this purification of the self cuz it's sort of believed that you don't we don't want people who are you know, full of full of all that ego pathology and and and kind of gross tendencies. We don't want them getting the power of enlightenment cuz it'll be distorted by by the container. And so we need to purify the vessel so it's ready to you know, be to hold this light and to that, you know. Yeah, yeah. But you know, and it's just interesting for Andrew, you know, cuz he would I mean, here's the thing. He he always kind of taught that what you're saying in a way, but but he didn't call it positive ego. He just felt like we needed to cultivate our character, our best self, our you know, higher capacities. I mean, he he wanted everybody, you know, he he a huge part of his teaching was on self-purification. I mean, like like the Tibetans, he had his students doing hundreds of thousands of prostrations and you know, purification practices to try to help people reduce their arrogance or reduce their kind of unworthiness or whatever whatever those ego structures that were in their way were. So, so he I think yeah, but it's it's interesting. Yeah, I'll have to think about his way of dividing the ego and all that. I don't know. How we Yeah. I But anyway, these are they're all just concepts, but fundamentally fundamentally the idea of having a you know, and and and why is that important? Cuz we can look back over the last several decades of awakening coming to the West and see countless examples of people who had powerful awakenings that just empowered ego pathologies and they became teachers who made big messes with their communities. Including Andrew. And that's the great irony of Andrew I have to say that I find so, you know, I was when he passed away, I was reflect you know, all of us went to our own process around that, but one of my really sad things which I shared with my close friend Carter Phipps who was my best friend and closest colleague there and when we were in Andrew's community back way back when. But I was I was saying to him that like I just feel I still feel very there's like a pain in the fact that see from the very all from very early on Andrew saw how um kind of corrupted the Dharma teachings had become in the West and he was really a stand for wanting something different to happen and he wrote all these articles early on and in fact What is Enlightenment magazine which I worked on for 8 years, was kind of launched to try to at directly go into these topics that had to do with like purity and spiritual teachers. And he he was saying, "Look, you know, there are all these teachers on one hand who are kind of selling enlightenment short and and saying, 'Oh, enlightenment's not that big of a deal. You're still just the same old schmuck you've always been, but now you have some enlightened you know, he he he really railed against that idea. He also pointed to all the teachers who had had sexual scandals that had wrecked their communities and said, "You know, this is just they weren't they weren't upholding the truth that they had realized and they were abusing their power." And you know, and he and be had a big article called Corruption, Purity, and Enlightenment in one of those first couple issues of the magazine where he just went into all this. And this was such a it was such a preoccupation for him. And I think part of what drew me to him I was saying to Carter was that I felt like I felt that way, too. I felt like, "Oh, here's a teacher who is a stand for the purity of the teaching role and the the radical nature of enlightenment and who is, you know, trying to blaze a path of authentic awakening in this Western world where so much has been diluted, watered down, you know, lost, you know, over psychologized. You know, there's the Dharma has been so over psychologized that it's just like another another healing modality to to do spiritual practice as opposed to this radical awakening to a different part of us and a different possibility for humanity. So, Andrew was such a stand for all that. And then and then in the end his legacy was that he he ended up on the in the you know, in terms of how he how history's going to hold it, you know, he ended up on those in the column of oh, another kind of failed experiment where the guru was corrupt. Where you know, and I and and I like to kind of say to people, well, the thing about it's all true, you know, cuz in the end Andrew wouldn't I mean, my one analysis I would bring to it is just that I felt and I always felt it when back back when when I was with him, too, is I was like Andrew doesn't want to be part of the community because he doesn't want he could feel how if he sort of like joined the meetings as another guy, even among his leadership circle, even among those of us who were leaders, if he just like got into a context with us where we could give him feedback and challenge him that it would just the hierarchy the power of the awakened hierarchy would be lost and he couldn't bring himself to do it. I had no impulse to do it. But but then I would see but on the and and he couldn't he wouldn't do it. Sorry, I I think I'm getting putting the cart before the horse. What I'm trying to say is Andrew didn't have any context of peers who would be able to give him any feedback to help him reflect on things. He had a peer circle among his senior students and he had certain friends who were other spiritual teachers that he talked to and you know, and other kind of luminaries, but he didn't talk to him about this. Like he never he I knew his I knew all of his relationships with all the other teachers cuz I was in the middle of them. I would be in those rooms and I would hear about his talks with all of them and I knew what was going on and it was never like wow, here's what I'm struggling with as a teacher. Wow, here's you know, where I feel challenged. And he didn't he never set anyone up in a position where they could challenge him, they could give him criticism, they could give him feedback. So, he ended up in an ivory tower kind of bubble until the whole community kind of matured to a place where he was getting in the way of a lot of things practically and they tried to like now give him feedback about it and he just wouldn't take it but he but it was you know, it's I'm sure he regretted it in the end because it was like it just seemed to to all at once probably or something or he just I don't know. He did I don't know. I can't psychoanalyze him. I wasn't around that last decade so I don't know. People say things had gotten a lot worse. But um but anyway, it's just very sad to me that cuz he had such a desire to be an an example to leave a legacy of like purity and and integrity in the spiritual scene and most people see him as like the opposite now and I feel it's complicated and I just knew both parts of him. I knew both part I I knew I knew the part of him that wouldn't listen when he should have, you know, I knew it well cuz I was with him every day and I feel like Andrew we had shouting matches, you know, and you know, and I I knew that but I also knew the part of him that was actually super pure. I mean, I also know the Andrew that that did listen because Yeah. And that's that's also why it is complex. He I got to know him as not always being sure what to do and then actually wanting to to have your opinion and wanting to listen and wanting to hear. None about his teaching style. That I agree with that. I'm saying, see. But about everything else he really was. No. Yeah, yeah. I worked with him on the magazine. Yeah, go ahead. You you Yeah, yeah, he was not an autocrat that because sometimes he he's painted as the guy that sat on on the top and commanded everything but that was not what was happening. In in many ways he did he did also delegate and and give people power to to run certain parts of of of the business and and and he he did listen. But as a teacher, he felt that that he was the holder of the pure Dharma and and he didn't want to play with that. He didn't want to get any to take anything from anybody when it came to the the pure Dharma, no? Even in those later years after everything had fallen apart. See, that's interesting cuz yeah, like working with him on on the magazine all those years and people didn't know this about him, I think, who who weren't close, but you know, we would we would argue everything out and he really wanted us to argue with him. He really wanted everybody to say their opinion and he didn't hold it against you if you, you know, won the argument or what you know, like he was there was a kind of purity to him and and and one example I I will give when I'm trying to describe it to people is See, you know how how most most human beings when they have a strong opinion about something that they're really advocating for that then if inform someone else brings something up that counter counteracts and proves them wrong like like they really oh, well, I'm wrong. They lose face over it. They have a hard time kind of pivoting to the new position. They still well, I saw it this way because of this, you know, where but that's the ego trying to defend itself, right? So with Andrew, it would be amazing cuz he would advocate for a point of view so hard to say, we should do the you know, call the mag the the issue of the magazine. We should give it this title and he'd be so excited and he'd be having somebody create a artistic rendering of it and he'd be going and going and then, you know, a couple of us we meet and then we say, we don't think it's a good idea at all and here's why and we think it should be more like this and here's why and he go And he took it, though. He go oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. And that was it. There There no ego. There was no defense. He would just go, "Oh, yeah, you guys are totally right." And then like, "Okay, let's do that." There was He had an ability to to let go of his point of view and move to a more a more, you know, accurate point of view without any internal ego kerfuffle. Right. No, that's that's rare, you know, very rare in my experience that people can do that. But you had to come with good arguments and and that that is what I loved in him. Well, and stand in your own strength. Yeah. had to you have to had solid arguments in a good way, not in a bad way. It just he wanted you to be clear about, yeah, okay, why is it not a good idea? Why should we do it differently? What we should we do that? Like, you had to be very clear. Yeah. So. You know, I It's interesting, you know, I I really loved Andrew. I really, you know, leaving that community was the hardest thing I ever did in my in my entire life. I I left him. I left all my friends. I left my career, my job with the magazine all at once. And and uh you know, and I always I always hoped that gradually things he would come around and like the whole thing would mature and he would come to a place where he could start to be more open to people's different points of view and feedback and like that he would some I I kind of always hoped that someday he would change. And then when it all fell apart, I was just like I felt terrible when it fell apart cuz I even though I had left and gone on and I was teaching myself out in the world and I felt very um I felt very aligned with Andrew still in a lot of ways, even you know, even though we had had our huge differences. I felt aligned with his teachings fundamentally and I felt felt, you know, like he had brought a clarity with his teachings that was very unique and that it was really important. And so I was all I always felt like, "Well, the community is still going. That's good. It's probably maturing. Andrew is probably maturing." And then when when Carter told me about his big talk with Andrew that then brought the whole thing crashing down and you know, and I was just like, "Wow, it couldn't it didn't you know, it didn't ultimately work out, you know? But just But just cuz it didn't ultimately work out doesn't mean that Andrew's legacy isn't isn't spectacular still. And I guess for for this interview I would just want to highlight cuz I you know, that community um shaped so many incredible people who are out doing great work in the world and and even people who aren't doing like, you know, visible you know, aren't public figures or doing anything, you know, very visible. People who who lived through that experiment and you know, really were shaped by those teachings get recognized by others in their fields, in their companies, their relationships. Those are the qualities they have get recognized as something very unique. And I remember it happening to me after I left right away. I'd go and like just I was just looking for work, you know, for a little while before I started doing my own teaching work and you know, people would hire me to do some project for them and and and just be like, "Wow, you know, who are you? You've got so much mental agility and flexibility and inner strength and you know, all these qualities." And And I heard this over and over from people and I see it in so many people um now who just are able to function in a really high level in whatever they're doing in the world. So you know, there's a bit of a narrative about how Andrew, you know, just hurt a lot of people and left a lot of people wounded, but I feel like it seems like most of the people I've encountered, even who maybe went through a period of being really traumatized and messed up by by all of it, kind of seem to have emerged out the other side carrying a lot of the strength and positive qualities. Mhm. And and to have to see it all in a more balanced light than they did for a while. I mean, I you're going to you're interviewing people and and probably seeing a lot of this eye to eye. I know everyone's in a different place than I I think you are right and one way or the other even if people themselves cannot can you not yet witness it really, but but they've have benefited from the from the time and from I I would say most of them, probably not all of them, but most. Yeah, seems like most. And and you know, and and those who can't, I want to I want to say I I get it, you know, I I also understand that some people were really really pretty ravaged by Andrew's intensity and didn't feel loved and and contained and supported in that and ended up feeling pretty hurt and may still feel fundamentally hurt by it, really regret having been part of it. Yeah. And I think that's a valid you know, people went through a lot of different experiences there. Some people had a like largely positive experience, like myself. Other people had a pretty horrible experience and and had a hard time leaving and just felt really, you know, weakened and and demoralized and and you know, that pain is real and that that that's you know, that's part of Andrew's Andrew's legacy, too. And you know, he you know, my hope is that in his uh having been released from from the physical body now that maybe he's has a kind of lucidity about it all and that's that's enabling him to step back into his full kind of awakened power but also to somehow maybe I don't know how it all works but maybe support people's healing from the other side and some way I don't know. Yeah. Sorry, what were you you were going to say? Yeah, no, I I wanted to cover one topic with you. And I see that the the the the hour is already I'm okay. I think I can go for a while. It's okay. It's okay. Very good. So, because I wanted to ask you about 30th July and and the intersubjective work that you did with Andrew because you were there at at the breakthrough time, yeah. So, I would love to hear it from your experience, your point of view, what happened there and how significant was it? Well, it's an interesting thing. So, So, Andrew would say that very that pretty early on in his teaching career he when people started to gather around him um and he was teaching night after night and then people were just sort of spending time together all day and they were talking about the teachings and they were just being together and then they'd be in the teachings again at night. He started to notice some quality happening between the people Yeah. that was different from just individual enlightenment. It was like, oh, there's some collective awakening phenomenon that happens between people sometime where there's this beautiful higher consciousness that's being shared. And he I think that became for him at a certain point like he saw that as the goal ultimately. He saw that as like, "Oh, enlightenment's not just for individuals to be liberated. Enlightenment's for a new way of for human being is to bring about a new way for human beings to come together and live together beyond ego from these higher consciousness places. And so he started formally getting people to meet together in groups to try to make more of this happen. And that that was pretty early on cuz even when I first joined the community way back, we were in we were put into group peer groups where we would meet and there were kind of two types of meetings. There were meetings where we would talk about ourselves and talk about, "Well, here's what I'm struggling with on the path." And we would give each other support and try to help each other with that. And and those were delicate and often we would have like parental supervision meaning somebody who was more advanced would come and help because you get everybody giving each other feedback, it can be a little rough. Um but there were those groups, but then there were these other ones where we would just talk about the teachings and not talk about ourselves and just be trying to really talk, you know, trying to speak from these awakened perspectives essentially. And for me, I remember the first time this thing happened. I was it was when I was living in Marine and I was in uh he had often had the groups divided by gender. So it was I was in a men's group of fairly junior, you know, newer men in the community not not his like long-term students cuz it was my first year there. Um but I remember we were talking and one of one person in the room like said something that had a whole different frequency to it than what everyone else was saying. And and a few of us picked up on it. And then we like started speaking from that same place. And there were suddenly three of us in the group who were all resonating at this higher consciousness. And and then and then and then we were trying to figure out how to get everyone else to to see it and join it cuz it was very clear like oh, there's this higher consciousness that we're all now in one mind the few of us. And we're trying to get other people to join and a few were able to but not everybody could, you know, not in that moment, you know, and then and what happened in those kind of events is if if you couldn't connect with that higher frequency pretty quickly you felt like performance anxiety and struggle. And would contract more cuz oh, no, this thing's taking off and I'm not on it, you know, this plane's taking off and I didn't make it through the door. So, that happened but I remember our group had this experience and it was so profound and it and it continued from meeting to meeting where we could come together. And we just wanted to stay in it and talk in it all the time. And Andrew heard about what was happening in our little group. And and he wanted to meet with us cuz he was like oh, there it's that thing. It's happening, you know, so he cuz he wouldn't normally meet with these newer people, you know, directly but he wanted to meet so he met with us and we described it to him and he was like yeah, this is it. You guys are tapping into it. But of course, he didn't know how to make it happen. I mean this was often the thing. He He knew what it was. He could recognize it. He wanted it to happen. But he couldn't really guide it because he had not he hadn't been in it himself. He was like above it in his awakened state but he wasn't down in this how did this thing spontaneously emerge in a group? He wasn't even there. So, I don't know. I'm sure he gave us some of guidance. I don't remember it it helping. I think it probably made us all feel performative, like we had to somehow do it again, and it fizzled out after a while and didn't continue. And then he I think he was probably mad that it didn't continue cuz we had betrayed it or whatever. That was kind of his frame. But anyway, you know, year So So that was my first experience of that, and then and then over the years of us being together, this thing would happen in groups occasionally, and something you know, one time it happened for a group of women on a retreat in Europe, and they all suddenly came together in this and then it was like, "Oh my god, look what's happening with the women." And you know, this thing happened and they described it and it was exactly what had happened for us. So yeah, so the the July 30th event that Andrew, you know, made made a lot out of was a group of us had He had it this this was following a period of immense pressure that he had been putting on the men, the our group of men, and this is where we had moved into our large property in Western Massachusetts, where we had our live-in ashram, essentially, or monastery. And he had been putting immense pressure on the group of men to like rise up as a whole and like bring everyone with us and really go somewhere, and it had been a a very tough period for I don't remember, a year or so. And that had kind of culminated in a very long, extended retreat that a bunch of us were on, where we were just in retreat, meditating day and night. And he uh And then after we had been on retreat for a while, he he wanted us to meet in to start meeting and talking. And not all the men were on the retreat. Some Some weren't Some were. Most of us were. Um but we started having meetings where we would again talk about the teachings, talk about higher talk about the authentic self, talk about and not talk about ourselves, but just talk about the experience of that. And there was one meeting in particular where this phenomenon started to happen where, you know, a higher consciousness frequency was being spoken by a few people and then and then effectively everybody in that room was able to get into the higher consciousness together. So, there was this one consciousness experience and there was this incredible energy soaring in the room and and we all kind of ascended together into this Mhm. place that was just beautiful and you like completely devoid of the personal ego and everybody was able to leave their ego behind essentially and go into this together and when we described it to Andrew, I think he felt like, "Oh, this is it because everybody got because it happened for everybody as opposed to like usually it would be some people, but not everybody." And and then we kept meeting for several days, you know, and continuing to meditate and do our practice and this carried on for some period of time and it started to affect other people and other groups that weren't part of that even like overseas we heard that some of the groups that were meeting at that time started to like have this experience. So, there was this kind of ripple of collective awakened consciousness that was happening through his whole student body and was becoming kind of contagious. And um and yet the thing is I think again it wasn't something that could be really stabilized because it like this came out of an intense long retreat that we were all on while it happened. So, everybody was had you know created a lot of distance between them and their ego, you know, cuz everyone was in deep meditation, you know, and and like these higher states would occur, but then Andrew would just get so frustrated cuz he'd feel like, well, once you've been there why can't you just stay there? You're just not you know, you got you don't care enough about it. You know, people don't care enough or they would just do what it takes to get there. And for me it was sort of like, well, that was probably true for a certain percentage of the group that that could hold it cuz they had the development that developed the capacities to hold these higher states. But for a lot of people they were able to just ride along with it Yeah, yeah. because they just made a leap in a moment cuz it was so powerful in the room. It's sort of like transmission, you know, you teacher has the transmission, people are receptive, they can feel it, they can go into awaken consciousness just cuz of the teacher's field. This was like group co-transmission. But the expectation that now because everyone had tasted it they now had what they needed to to hold it and manifest it was kind of radically unrealistic and out of touch with the developmental complexities, which was, you know, Andrew's Achilles heel really, which is so interesting cuz he was so into higher development. He was a preacher of development. He was an integral you know, loved integral theory. But somehow he couldn't see enlightenment as developmental or or the capacity to hold enlightenment as developmental. He kept trying to see it as this binary moral, you know, choice point. Anyway, so that yeah, so anyway, it didn't really ultimately last per se, but it did it it did create a new bar and a new reference point for I think the whole community in a sense that that elevated you know, everything I think probably from that point on. Yeah, and and I do personally think it did create a a groove in consciousness. A groove, yeah, sure. Yeah, so that it's my my own experience is that it's probably more accessible today Mhm. than it was when it happened the first time so when it when it it's almost like yeah, opening up a space that is now available for people who are serious and and uh put the intention on on meeting in that space. It might be. Yeah. Might be. And I'm also I'm personally also quite disillusioned that even for enlightened ex, it didn't help anybody to to then meet the challenges around the crash time and actually stay beyond the ego and and solve the problems that were were obviously there and Mhm. so that Mhm. is something I grapple a lot with. What what does it all mean when when uh we cannot use it to to solve actual problems, no, between people and among people and Well, I think we can if we stay aligned with it and stay true to it. I think probably what happened there at the end was cuz I've I've I've interviewed a lot of friends and former friends, you know, informally but really probed like what happened at the end and why did it all fall apart, you know, cuz this was one of my questions for people when it you know, was like okay, I get that that there was this big confrontation with Andrew and he wasn't willing to like receive the challenge and the feedback and I get that but why didn't the community hold together anyway? Well, we're going to we're going to demand something from Andrew and and we're going to stay together and carry on. Like I I said, why didn't that happen? Cuz I wasn't there but it it seemed ideally I think that's what I'm hearing from you. Like why weren't people able to hold the hold the course and just let this Andrew thing work itself out? all the changes that some people seem to have wanted to make happen. That that was always my question. Why when Andrew then stepped down and went into his sabbatical, why didn't they take the opportunity and and actually make the changes that were uh needed in the structure of the the the strong hierarchy and in the whole organization. Well, the answer I've been given by everybody who was at in kind of in charge at the time when that all happened was just that there had been so much pent-up frustration on an individual level that everybody nobody wanted had the had the will or the motivation to carry the thing forward at that point. They were just kind of like he had I think he had spent all of his relational collateral with a lot of these people and they were just just ready to move on. And that and not not everybody, but there wasn't enough of a center of gravity that wanted to hold center and move forward. It was just like all the individuals had reached their enough point with him and it felt like I'm not going to die on another sword here cuz of course you know Yep. people were mad. Anyway, I don't know. I wasn't there. I've just I've heard some things, but that's what I've heard from some of the people who who who I've asked about. Yeah, me too. That's that's the that's the story of it. like they were fed up, they were done and and they just that was it. So, I don't know. Anyway, I'm sure you have other people who can comment more meaningfully on that cuz they No, no. I I I I I mean I I have heard exactly the same explanations and it never completely satisfied me. Let's put it like this. In in my own utopian vision, uh I always felt like, "Yeah, but guys, why didn't you just But anyway, it Well, you can you the the you can hold to your utopian vision and you can make it all happen now. It's never too late. But one last question, Craig. Just to end on a positive note, what is your most beautiful memory of of your interaction with Andrew or or your being together with Andrew or your time with Andrew? Gosh, let me I'm sure I won't be able to come up with the most one right all in a on a second, but I'm sure I can come up with a pretty good ones. Um You know, the experience I had working with Andrew on the magazine, which was such a big part of our life together cuz this was our this was his this was the nexus of his spiritual inquiry, you know, where he was in his own learning and exploring and and it was you know, for me and for for those of us on it, it was like our whole life mission to bring this inquiry out into the world. That we just had endless hours of just beautiful time with him where he was, you know, just his open, playful cuz Andrew was incredibly playful, you know, and and he was just his open-hearted playful self and we would just be exploring ideas and reading books together and discussing them and chiseling the magazine and then you know, I think when we would like finally bring it all together in the end and have an issue formed and we'd all just be on cloud nine together and just being in his like the the joy, you know, his joy and his his open heart and his, you know, real appreciation for the hard work we were doing. You know, there was just uh yeah, like the Andrew I I will remember and hold most is was that Andrew who was just such a fun such a great friend and and so caring and so loving and so wholehearted and so open and innocent in his inquiry and you know just and and all at the same time always calling me to my highest and not you know not settling for less than my best and just like like like we want a really good mentor to be you know just he was just all those things in in those moments so there's a Yeah that's beautiful. positive note And I even would say even if he didn't call us to our best we wanted to be our best no like that that was just being in his presence and working with him that that's well at least my experience also meant like you want to be your best. Yeah. It was not always that he had to push or it was just Right. compelling It was the call to grow and the call to to be your best self for the sake of the whole. Yeah. Yeah. So uh So thank you Craig. I think that was great. Thank you so much. Happy to happy to be here and and share and reflect and I'm glad you're doing it. I was hoping there would be some kind of memorial service where people would share but then I thought well this is a more a more eternal memorial service cuz you're Yes. all out so it's nice. Yeah. Yeah.