Evolutionary Spirituality episode VIII

[Music] [Applause] [Music] a very warm welcome to this dialogue today tonight between Dr Mark Gaffney and Andrew kohen very happy to see you all and welcome Andrew and Mark very excited to hear you talk about the topic of the evolution of God or evolutionary perennialism so this is a a topic very close to my heart too and I'm very curious what will happen tonight in this beautiful dialogue and before I hand over to Mark to start the dialogue I would like to give you a little bit of a overview how we do these calls normally so uh Andrew and markk will have a dialogue for a time and then they will open up for questions and you will be able to write your question in the chat box of the zoom window that you find at the bottom of Zoom most of you I'm sure know how this works and then either myself or Christa will read the questions out loud and then Mark and Andrew will respond to them and I think that's already everything I had to say and I'm very happy to hand over to you mark so first of it's great great great to be here and thank you everyone for coming and I am I really could not be more thrilled to be here in generally I I begin by commenting on Andrew's shirt which has been our general kind of comment and he never disappoints he always has a great shirt I'm always slightly jealous and then I have to go to kind of like a couple weeks of therapy for kind of shirt jealousy that's a great shirt and it's good to see you my friend oh we can't hear you muted Andrew you have to unmute yourself please I said thank you nice to see you sir he always by the way everybody he always avoids kind of responding to my shirt comment he's consistent and he's just like it has is very cool you know but he he likes that I like his shirt I'm just saying he won't he won't share that with you he might not even crack a smile but he does okay it's great to be together it's great to be together and um I'm GNA begin Andrew and I generally switch um who's going to begin so I'm going to begin this time and this is either our our last or second to last dialogue I'm not sure which one but it's around there we're kind of finishing this this we're towards the conclusion of this dialogue series and I just want to say before we start now I'm gonna be very you know attentive to detail here I'm going to pay attention It's 11:08 so I'm just going to say a minute about just you know um just how how important I think this Series has been right did I I don't use the word important lately you know it's been enjoyable it's been deep it's been delightful um you know Andrew and I have at least for every dialogue at least talked at least once before so there's been another set of kind of conversations that come with it danela Christa it's been you know it's just greatly delightful to be with you and held by you and in the whole space and just so it's been a a really important space I actually look last night about 1500 people all in all have participated in the dialogues over the last you know um couple of years right so it's great it's been it's just been a beautiful a beautiful process and I think there's been real deepening you know we're not going to turn this into kind of a formal restructured you know work book but we will at least share a kind of set of oral essays with people so you'll have this kind of sense these kind of you know at some point and and it's been just a a really really important dive and as Andrew said to me on um few days ago and we were talking you know we both feel co-responsible that's not the word you use brother but you know we feel co-responsible in a very deep way right a kind of omni responsibility for the sake of the whole to put these understandings of the world absolutely very much so very much so right very right this is not a there's not a casual conversation there's both an urgency to the conversation there's an ecstasy but there's also a holy desperation if I can use that word right we're at a there's we're at a desperate moment in time in which we're both filled with the immense Beauty and gorgeousness of reality and we're also filled you know Andrew with this the desperation of this moment you know in so many ways and and and and we have this great abiding trust confidence right in the larger goodness of reality and and yet we stand face to face with both immense human capacities for virtual Utopias we could actually create the most beautiful true and good world that could possibly be created and yet we're also on the brink of of potential dystopias which are very very real and so I just want to just begin with that I spend a good part of the week with um close colleagues that work close with the center World philosophy and religion a couple of you know adjacent organization I won't mention the name but all of you know most of those people and you know part of the job was what was a group of people had you know in our Circle had essentially organized and collated and integrated all the risk reports in the world of risk reports right and when you act look at the level of peril right you know and you integrate all the risk reports and you kind of get out of the kind of surface conversation you know Andrew brother the level of peril is so immense that you actually can't but conclude that you know that phrase but for the grace of God absolutely but that it hasn't collapsed it is but for the grace of God and when you when you when you experience that level of peril and yet at the same time that level of promise right and there's a potential right there's a potentiality there's a promise you know and so as we're we're poised between this Peril and promise we're poised between Utopia and dystopia right what what's going to carry us forward is I me I call it we each have our own name for it I call it a new story of value you know a universal grammar value rooted in the field of value and at the very very core of this notion of the field of value is this notion of what I would call evolutionary parental ISM which is not unrelated to your beautiful term Andrew evolutionary Enlightenment back in the day when you put that beautiful book out and and and by the way if I can um this is not for the sake of book sells this for the sake of loving and sharing right there's a book that Zach myself Zack Stein myself and Ken wilberg just put out called first principles and first values which I really encourage everyone to get I would encourage everyone to get Andrew's original book evolutionary Enlightenment and read those together I mean read those together actually a great experience and just want to just invite everyone to do that in terms of kind of you know an enormous deepening of this conversation so with that in mind I'm going to jump in so I was I those are the first those five minutes introduction and and then I'm just going to take I mean maybe five six minutes you know I'll again we're going to watch the clocks here to try and just begin to un pack this and what I think we'll do as we always do is we'll take blocks of time kind of sharing with each other and with everyone and then take questions at the end so we're talking about evolutionary Paralis and we titled it on the evolution of God you know which is a a a critically important phrase and I really want to start there and you know one of the things that live in the space between Andrew and I is friendship and in actually quite a few years we've been we've known each other so I remember being at Andrew's Center in Fox Hollow and I'm giving a talk there back in it must have been 200 Danielle I don't know if you were there or not there but it was it was back in the day it was back in the day whenever the day was right whenever that day was it was back that day and and the the talk was about the title of the talk was God needs your service that was the talk which is a phrase that comes from mayor iing gabai who's a kind of penultimate I call them not Mystics interior scientist is a word I try and use with intention of the Renaissance period he wrote a book called aod KES kind of the the sacred work and what he means is is so stunning I mean I mean when I actually even think of sharing it with you now I literally not night not metaphorically I feel tears welling up in my eyes and this kind of Rush of kind of my my breath almost stops and and you know the the the ancient text says if it wasn't realized we couldn't speak it right in other it's it's so it's what we're about to say is so shocking and and I I look forward to together Andrew with you to kind of clarifying it because we're coming from actually very very different places and we're meeting in this overlapping place so I look forward to actually not just declaring today but sharing and creating new knowing together but first I want to just start with the core so all of my monties all of a quietus you know and I'm I'm sharing with Andrew and as Andrew also does and sharing with everyone right right spend all their time these medieval schoolmen these great realizers these great Scholastic realizers right spend all of their time telling us that we need to be clear that God has no needs in the East whether you're doing a vanta right or you're doing classical you know tervada or Mayana and and also virtually all strains of bajana all three turnings of the wheel right you have this notion of buddhahood and the core notion of buddhahood is that Buddha is this this Perfection that's why Buddha sits like Buddha does Jews can't sit that way we can't quite get our legs that way we try it just doesn't work you know but other but there's this sense of this this equinity this buddhahood right and this Buddha is beyond needs right it's the realm of the absolute right it engages the realm of the relative but basically the notion of a core need or or core you know desire right this is indicative both on the god side of the street the western side of the street and on the classical Eastern Enlightenment side of the street is Indica of need I'm Desiring something right so there's an imperfection and I'm not in my buddhahood I'm not in my Divinity right and both the east in its ways say you know become at Brahman become Buddha and the West in its way says be like God right which means move Beyond needs and desires and then you have this crosscurrent of unimaginably gorgeous realization which i' I've felt in my body for decades which is this other notion this other realization that lives in Gorge gous paradoxical tension which is God needs your service meaning there's some way in which and let me see if I can say it clearly which to be perfect you have to be able to become more if I can kind of just cut through right in other words transformation is a quality of perfection so if you have a child that's born perfect and then you have a child that that's born imperfect and the imperfect child works unimaginably hard and engages in this process of transformation and gets to the place of the perfect child and then you say okay which child is is kind of more complete and more whole the one was born automatically perfect or the one who perfected well clearly the one who perfected so this realization at the core of the lineage is that if Divinity or Mahood how you going to tell that story is perfection it must contain the quality of becoming more perfect of transforming otherwise it would be imperfect it's a paradox with some very deep realization some very deep realization and and you know we have a phrase we use in in the new St value cosmotic humanism we call it anthro onology meaning you go deep inside my anthro and I'll find ontology I'll find the true nature of existence the Mysteries are within us so what that means is is that this notion that I actually need my needs and my desire not my Surface desire My clarified desire right is actually my true Essence and my true Essence participates in Divinity and so Divinity in some way evolves transforms needs desires here's the last step and the dimension of divinity that needs and desires that evolves that transforms is Divinity in us as us and through us now Divinity disguises infinitude and then needs to become complete needs to become whole so at the very very core of the Hidden lineages you won't find it in the synagogues of the wisdom of Solomon is this realization that God needs our service that actually the power is with the realizer and and God loves us so madly much or Infinity desires finitude so madly much or Infinity needs finitude soly much that infinity or what we would call in the language of cosmotic humanism the infinite intimate God the infinite intimate desires our service and becomes whole through our service meaning last sense right she he it Divinity the godhead the infinite intimate loves us so much that she's willing to make herself dependent on us giving her power she's willing to in some sense as it were we say as it were limit her power and actually evolve through us so she she steps back Tsum she withdraws but she's of course always there in the withdrawal paradoxically and she turns to us and says make me more whole make me complete evolve me right I'm turning to you and saying I love you so much that I'm making you responsible for my Evolution and that we actually as human beings our ultimate dignity last sense is that we participate in the evolution of God so that that opens it up right and I'm I'm I'm madly delighted to turn to Andrew and take it away brother I'm delighted to be with you thank you Mark that was very deep and very complex and very beautiful so Al in my own way I'll try and do this through the same um these are very big truths we're speaking about here they're deep they're fundamental and they're most importantly they're not not not not relative but they're absolute we trying to speak about the absolute truth so I'll try to respond to everything he said from a different perspective which will probably more Eastern but um I agree with you wholeheartedly that um God wants us to participate and realizing that becomes a source of Liberation when we awaken to have the evolutionary impulse or to evolutionary Enlighten so to start at the beginning before the universe was created you could say God which I Define as the sum totality of everything that exists and everything that does not exist and an absolute principle so I'm defining this absolute Principle as the sum totality of everything that exists and everything that does not exists and I think we could all agree that that includes everything it includes absolute nothingness and everything else that exists all creative process so once again God is the Su totality of everything that exists that does not exist and that some totality is with the realizers Mark was speaking about the great realizers is can be an experience a felt experience a direct cognition or kind of absolute transgressional knowing of what of God which means knowing of the sun totality everything that exists everything that does not list and it experiences Revelation Liberation from anything relative so that what I'm describing as is uh the kind of experience that liberates us from from route of existence so so before before the universe was created there was nothing God was an internet dless formless internet beginningless and endless and etern no thingness and you want want to remember that God is perfect fearless doubtless and always indestructible so you can imagine that in this in in his or her state of infinately liberated Consciousness where he and she was doing absolutely nothing for eternity it was he or she was free from the burden of existence and fre from the burden having to do anything create anything become anything it was just just eternal being the vibration of Eternal being eternally into eternity so I think one can imagine this this is when we have to do some anthropomorphic speculation on the nature of the god principle so understand that I I'm giving myself licensed to speculate from an anti morphic perspective because since I'm a human that's the only perspective I can imine from so I'm doing that consciously I'm taking that leap knowing that that it's going it's going to give me uh a perspective that's narrow that's going to be limited to my human capacity so therefore it's going to be inherently relative and partial it's the best I can do Being Human so try and imagine what it would be like to have been doing nothing for eternity it feel it' be you will be you're resting an eternal being for eternity which basically means in human terms you've been doing nothing forever you can imagine that it might it might get you might begin to wonder what would we like to do something if you've been doing nothing travel so so I think at a certain point the thought arose in your no mind I wonder what it would be like to do something and why would God think have these kinds of thoughts because she's why not why wouldn't God think these thoughts because God can God's inate and perfect and fearless and doubtless so so imagine these thoughts began to arise why would be like to do something because I'm doing nothing forever and be the arising of the curio inner curiosity a kind of way and the curiosity would build up over countless billions ofs of no time as a desire March talks about desire that we build up as a as as an evolutionary tension of became pregnant with desire and curiosity what it would be like to become something that exists as in manifest form because God up until that point has been existing and has ever unmanifest INF the so this curiosity would build up and become an evolutionary tension that would build up and build up and build up and build up and build up and build up as I said overc countless biling of be of no time until until there was an unimaginable Cosmic release and that Cosmic release was a leap from nothing to something from being to becoming from unmanifest to manifest from non-existence to existence and of course is when the verse or the Multiverse was created came to be so in this perspective I'm trying to share God become God and after this leap has been taken God goes from his or unmanifest form to becomes and becomes manifest so now God is both the unmanifest and the Manifest the the uncreated and the created and I think it's a very it's very it's a very profound contemplation of the nature of the absolute principle and the god principle and is both being and becoming God is both being and becoming and the experience of God is being is the experience of Peace because before anything ever happened there was only peace because nothing gone wrong nothing can get before anything ever happened nothing can go wrong so the experience of God is being is his peace it's not imaginable because it's peace the peace that exists prior to the thought to to do anything at all and of course we know that in the Eastern D we awaken to the that the ground What's called the grounded being or calls the grounded being through practices like meditation things like Pap is encourage us to transcend the mind and transcend time or transcend the Mind trans and time we discover this infinite depth in space and un imagine being who was only peace but God is Not only peace God has also experienced as this creative process that's in the process of becoming the creative processes in state of becoming that's what's very interesting that's is what Mark was speaking about and the big the new the new info or the new information for truth Seekers or has been for a while now you know very few people actually really understand this I believe is that oh my goodness not only does God exist just in himself being discovered but God is not it's not merely static unchanging be Eternal being but also this overwhelming desire to become and as being feels like peace becoming feels like I know Mark likes this phrase ecstatic urgency so what does it feel like what does it feel like to be the part of God that wants to exist and feels ecstatic and Urgent at the same time feels like bark was talking about this desperation to participate in the creative process that experiences an ecstatic unbearable urgency and you try to give everybody a sense of what it feels like to be God as the creator of the universe the creator of the universe I believe my imperfect understanding is constantly focused on what could be because God's not focused on the present moment it's the present from from a god from a Godlike perspective the present moment is always already arrived but if you cre if you created the universe would you be more interested in what you had already created or what you would you were interested in what you had not created yet you'd always in every single moment be interested in what you had not created yet and you'd be infinitely compelled infinitely absorbed infinitely inspired infinitely attracted to what was possible what's possible what's possible there's an internate meditation go God the Creator is constantly compelled by what could be in every single moment no matter what has happened what could be is always gets closer to the Perfection Mark spoke about now in responding to that I don't believe it's possible to be be that Perfection it's possible to experience that Perfection and these these these deepest insights these deepest experiential insights into the nature of absolute principle natur God principle is when we experience that Perfection on its own terms and that's when we come to our knees and awe and Rapture but that's that's a metaphysical Vision it's a direct Insight it's a direct NIS but what that inspires us to do it inspires the most realized beings to want to make manifest that Perfection that's been seen with the inner eye I want to give rise to that Perfection here in this imperfect world I want to make the world perfect it's utopian impulse the land of Shambala I want to create heaven on Earth and most of the most highest realizers were're always inspired by utopian Vision to create heaven on Earth in one shape or form or another and so as similar to the way what Mark was trying to describe when we we are in this in these enlightened Visions we find ourselves compelled to give to make manifest the Perfection that we experience in the inner Vision which which is Ultimate nature of reality reality itself seen with the inner eye seen as being and perfect so we we see what all from this perspective we're always seeing if if we're enlightened to the inherent Perfection of the god principle it compels us to ex from thir perspective s cour to want to give rise to that profunction in the world and we never get there or we're going to die trying we're going to live again and again and again and again and again trying eternally Earnest earnestly for eternally to make that Perfection manifest like can unbearable compulsion to make that Perfection manifest an unbearable compulsion to make that Perfection manifest and it's like an unquenchable desire wholeheartedly through through a great tce religious surrender and commitment we can experience the glory of God through not resisting that ecstatic urgency but it'll never be fully quenched because we're never going to get there it's always going to be beyond our reach but committing ourselves to that kind of ecstatic torment we put it that way I guess it's a big part of what living a religious life in Earnest in an evolutionary context is all about so just to finish I I wanted to um I wanted to add that this this Revelation this fairly recent Revelation that the this the god of the absolute principle is not mer static being but is also manifest becomeing you realize that the god principle the highest principle the truth principle is also evolving is as Mark said mindboggling infinitely mindboggling I've known this for maybe we haven't done this for 30 years now but it's whenever I speak about it when I think about it I find myself intoxicated and dumb founded by the enormity of what that means it means that the creator of the universe is always becoming more perfect then of course when we Embrace not when we also begin to embrace non-duality from that context it means as us that's when it gets really interesting if you're try to live the spiritual life in Earnest it's get gets really interesting because then you you start looking you have to look in the Mir and say I you know the essence of the do says I am that thou art that that's the the the ultimate mystical Revelation is I am what I've been seeking for I am the S but but not only that but you are also that that what you're looking for is also evolving if possible if you're ready for it through you and that's when this evolutionary Dharma becomes very interesting Embrace this understanding of the becoming of the universe the Manifest becoming of the universe we put oursel right in the middle of it I am the energy and intelligence who created the universe recognizing and realizing itself through dividing my personality of Mark or Andrew could such a thing really be true and say no it is true The evolutionary impulses awaken to itself through this body mind personality right now and the choices Andrew makes the choices Mark makes and the actions Mark makes and to mates are expressions of that Divine principle on good days on on on our best days God is expressing him herself through us as us and because of us and then finally when you realize from the perspective of non-duality that God does not exist outside you and outside me that we are it if you can handle that it's it's kind of spiritually unbearable but can you handle it to know that you really are it that God does not exist outside you God does not exist anywhere else other than in your own true heart that you are it and therefore it's up to you including the metac crisis situation that Mark was speaking about at the very beginning here in the end from a metaphysical perspective it's completely in our hands no matter what happens in the world no matter what right or wrong CH choices anybody else makes It ultimately up to us a metaphysical point of view so then the enormity of what it means to exist in this body mind and personality in this form to embrace the metaphysical and evolutionary implications of that have just profound beyond measure and that's what I think this new Dharma that Mark and I have been speaking about is all about so thank you beautiful beautiful thank you that was I mean deep profound and beautiful and important and and and I hope everyone noticed that Ander and I were talking about the exact same thing but in in somewhat different language is that that create a larger hole right in a in a very beautiful and in a very important way so it's a it's a rare moment and you know In This Moment let's see if we can kind of we each build one more step right and it you know it took you know 17 18 minutes to lay that out which is it really takes about 177,000 hours 177,000 years you know what I mean to you know to to be to lay that out so so let me see if I can just kind of speak into that brotherr and you know kind of further clarify for the sake of sheep right in other words what we're doing here is we're having a conversation but but not a conversation in the Casual sense right reality is a series of conversations that's what reality is and in other words we live in what I would call A A conversational Cosmos in the conversational Cosmos reality emerges through the clarifying conversation by God speaks and in logos emerg is the word for messiah is mashia mashia Messiah which is the the consciousness of a possible Utopia of a world that works for everyone of a world that we've responded to and transformed suffering the word mashia is conversation s that's what we're that's what we're doing right that's what we're doing right we're in that conversation we're right here we're doing that conversation and we are we're trying to if I can use a word from some of the lineages we're bringing some something down right and as we're trying to articulate something we're trying to right to articulate to bring it down let's bring this Torah down let's bring this Dara down so that's available and once you bring it down and in some sense Andrew and I have you know both kind of dedicated Our Lives to bringing some version of this tor down so that it exists in the world right and that it it can actually you know it can and the reason it's so critical it's not critical from a kind of merely Scholastic metaphysical perspective it's critical and responding to suffering and I want to try and kind of begin from there so the source of suffering in the world at the core of suffering it's overwhelming majority is human beings are acting out is that human beings are not realizing transformation human beings are defaulting right to an experience in which they meet in which we meet some version of The Emptiness and by The Emptiness I don't mean shunyata I don't mean the the emptiness that's ultimately full I mean The Emptiness that's empty right in other words that that simple emptiness and negative negative right kind of a kind of a kind of you know it's called you know there many many words for it but it's the sense of unwe George Steiner called it the sense of disease right the sense of there's nothing there the sense of you know funner BS the phrase from MC Beth right life is a tail told by an idiot full of sounds and Furies signifying nothing right nihilism kind a nihilism or a kind of we realize that we're subject there's an experience of our subjectification and as we realize our subjectification we experience our desubjectification right that it's worthless that this experience of as I experience myself as a subject I'm shamed by a sense of desubjectification right one am I I can't even find the worth of my being and the human being is the only being for whom being is a problem right and human is the only being who problematizes their own being but that's not a that's not a bug in the system that's a feature in other words the nature of reality and that I would say is one of the core shared understandings right that I've come to in my own life Andrew I know you've come to and all the great real archers have come too is that actually reality begins with the fall right the the Tora the mahab right the bhab these are stories of Crisis these are stories of Falls which then begin a journey which then begin a process of transformation so the process of transformation right that we experience that we go through right that that process is what it means to be human being now let's just go slow for a second so I experience a sense of being shamed shed it's a fundamental shame when you read the fundamental text of Western Civilization for example The Garden of Eden's story The Garden of Eden story is not a story of what I would call situational shame oh she made a mistake she ate the wrong from the wrong tree the Apple shouldn't have eaten that Apple it's not situational shame although that's how it's interpreted it's actually ontological shame ontological means shame at my very subjectification my very experience of a subject shame at my own fundamental lack of worthiness I feel alienated and I feel alienated from value shame is the experience of being alienated from value or from the godfield or or from possibility or from Ultimate potential right that's shame comes from a sense of being powerless a sense of being mortal helpless humiliation getting my basic needs met a kind of disgust right kind of STS comes with shame at my own kind of ultimate infantilized powerlessness that's the beginning and then I walk through that and I actually walk through that and actually experience a deeper reality I experience a deeper truth I experience a deeper realization not as a nosis but as a kind of first person clear realization I begin to realize no I'm actually welcome in the universe I'm actually dignified I actually have ultimate dignity so that experience from kind of UN logical shame to a place of ultimate dignity where I have the sense of of being ultimately dignified of being fundamentally welcome in the universe where does that come from that comes from what Andrew and I are describing in other words unless you experience yourself as participating in the healing and transformation of reality itself which is the healing and transformation of of God because God is reality right and it's not just I'm an obedient to a power that tests me to see if I can re in my impulses in the right way in order to get points in heaven and it's a good idea to reign in impulses and transform them in all the ways they should be that's not the point but the point is that that's not the game the game is transformation the game is to become a God man to become a godwoman to become Metatron M calls to become the human being who becomes the Divine and how do I do that I do that by actually realizing that I'm not anything other than a direct unique participant in the field of infinite possibility that God is the possibility of possibility that my unique possibility my unique quality of desire participates in that field and that my possibility potentiates the Divine because I'm so potent that I have not just the possibility but the actual I'm capacitated uniquely to potentiate the Divine and that I something emerges in Divinity Divinity becomes emergent because of Andrus right and that when Divinity meets Andrew when Divinity meets Mark when Divinity meets danela when Divinity meets Christa right when Divinity meets Pete who's here when when you know Paul right right in other words you know sahaja right if I pronounced it right right when Divinity meets right Pete and and Pete is clarified and has done this very deep deep commitment to transformation right then Divinity experiences in Andrew a shocking self-recognition of a new dimension of him herself that she he could not realize in any other way so if Andrew had not gone through if Mark had not gone through that process of breaking open of aat a Breaking of My vessels right until my heart opened so wide that I actually realized I'm not just homo sapian I'm not just wise I'm actually homo Amar and I'm a unique incarnation of this infinite love intelligence and love desire and love beauty and love potential and I actually give power I literally empower the Divine without that I actually have no dignity that's my I don't have any dignity that's it's it's a very subtle it's very I'm not dignified right I'm actually experiencing essentially what the last you know 100 Years of Western thought describe the human being right and and merp and and a a typical Martha nbam impossible to read book right Martha doesn't write books that are easy to read but she's very good right she recapitulates last hundred years of thought right in some sense correctly as right oh she says what we now realize is that as human beings were humiliated in getting our basic needs met and our basic experience of humiliation right characterizes and cohat and winot and in BBY they're all talking about this early childhood experience what what allows us to transform that humiliation right into a humility that's filled with audacity right is when I actually realize no no no no I'm actually meeting the needs of God right it's a shocking experience and and and generally generally with the only place we have a place that we can genuinely experience right this way of kind of healing the humiliation getting our basic needs met is when someone turns to us and honors the depth of our needs right so for example I give you an example it's why at the center of the lineage of Solomon AOS and sexuality are very important because in sexuality our beloved says to us your need is my alment in the sacred moment of the sexual the belov says your need is my alment all of a sudden my needs are not humiliated that they're honored but actually as we always say there's 12 billion years of AOS before sex it's not about the sexual it's about the erotic and in the erotic field we realize right that actually actually someone is turning to us a beloved is turning to us and saying your need is my alment so the re realization of the evolution of God is that God turns to us and says I need you and we turn back to the Divine and we say your need is my alert and that is the Song of Solomon That's the Song of Solomon which is the which is series of outrageous love notes which is characterized by the talmood as sanctum sanctorum the ultimate canonical text of Western Civilization out of which was born all of Western mysticism the account of The Chariot and everything that shaped the Renaissance and Laura and this notion of human dignity is that I can meet your need God and I have the capacity to meet your me and and and experience if we can just we can just for a second right Andre like experience rather right when we experience no one needs us you just go for a moment imagine I'm living in the world and no one needs me it's it's a shocking Hollow right and then experience the converse I just got a call from the president of United States pick your president Trump Obama Biden let's not go there pick your president or prime minister of France wherever you want to go right you get a call and I got a call let's say from let's do Obama I got a call from Obama and it turns out that he kind of seems to know everything about me and really subtly my history my past my childhood my unlived dreams my you know everything about me and then Obama says to me and you know what you know Christa I I need your gifts right the whole thing is in the balance right it's literally poised in the balance in order to tip the balance this Tipping Point I need your exact gifts and Obama knows you so well that he describes your precise gifts and you actually understand those precise gifts will actually Ripple into right the cosmic field right and Obama explains you you realize it's right you get off the phone depressed you get off the phone with the first sense you have genuine dignity right I'm dignified I'm welcome in the universe I can't be that's the Paradox I can't be welcome if I'm just practicing classical Enlightenment and I can't be welcome if I'm just practicing psychological transformation and I can't be welcome if I'm just practicing kind of religious obedience I can only be welcome and dignify if I'm actually participating in the evolution of God that's the only way I can be welcome all evil comes from human beings not feeling welcome in the universe right I'm not in the right that's the that's the field of Aros the field of Aros I'm welcome if I'm not welcome I I move to pseudo AOS right to kind of cover up the lack of being welcomed so maybe just one last thing and then we'll we'll turn maybe Andre if you're up for doing the last round then we can we can I think we're around 12 will open to questions but I wanna I want to go to this desire thing that you raised which I thought was so important and I I love how you describe kind of this this building up of Desire over time you can kind of get this this image of kind of this building right of of desire and of course the nature of Desire is that if we State desire it dis appears and if we actually bracket desire and let it build and emerge right then it actually it grows elongating increases and deepens and deepens then which is why delayed gratification is not just a moral principle it's a principle of Aros and if I want to actually experience the fullness of Desire I allow the desire to deepen in me and of course in both East and right the depth of cosmism you a a Gupta he'll talk about a stirring of desire in the infinite is a stunning right a stirring of desire in the infinite and so this notion of Desire is unimaginably important because desire we identify Desire with its with its fallen or degraded forms with its superficial forms that's like identifying sexuality with pornography the mistake right and other right and that's no no no no no desire is what we would call right the feel field of the Divine the field of the Divine itself is desire but the process of being alive is the clarification of Desire what is the nature what is my deepest hardge desire and in beer b r r r right in the lineage in the subtle texts right is this process of you know it's it's very hard to translate took me 10 years to translate that word but the best translation is the clarification of desire and I clar it to know what I desire and in the end I have two desires that are integrally one that they're they're they're Inseparable from each other one is I have a desire for power and I want to really name that because it's kind of it's Politically Incorrect to name s power no but actually there's a reason why God is called the Infinity of power right why did Barack Obama run for office power right the pleasure of power power is an intense pleasure now of course it can be exiled in its degraded form the Ring of saaron right so saaron is the abusive form of power it's ultimate power is an ultimate seductive goal but but Divinity is the Infinity of power power means I want to impact I want to actually impact that's what it means I don't want to be irrelevant I want to be relevant I want to impact right so Obama was ecstatic when he was in office because you could he would walk outside and he describes it and he sees a kid and he says hello to a kid and he changes the kid's life it's an enormously wondrous feeling that the capacity to impact the pleasure of power but of clarified power and it's the power of loving and this is where with all due respect to Jimmy Hendrick for whom we have a lot of respect Star Spangled manner right Woodstock there we were right I wasn't there but you know I was too but but it was happening right and and and and you know Hendricks got it wrong he said we got to get to a place where the The Power of Love is great love of power actually love and power are not split actually AOS and power are actually the same and my desire for power is the power to feed every 100 person the power to embrace every child the power to transform every broken heart and the power to give the gift of the human being earning if you will their own ultimate dignity their own ultimate freedom and so in the deepest understanding of the realizers as as I've been able to understand and grasp in my own body and in the in the lineage the hidden lineage texts none of them are public is that actually and this is a little bit where I think you're right you went a little bit you were playing I think Andrew with Leela a little bit right and as I you didn't name it but it was in the background the sense of this kind of play you know this kind of this kind of sacred Divine boredom which says okay let's let's do something else now which is very beautiful and and and and it's a very beautiful way to describe it you know in the you know in the neurotic intentionality of the Hebrew wisdom text right you know which which right you know I can play for a second right there's the sense of divinity's intensely powerful desire to give a gift in which I'm not just giving you full power and aosome love that you don't deserve but allowing you to deserve it right allowing you to own it right to own the gifts that I'm giving you and that's called in theage I don't want to give you the bread of shame I want to give you something that you you can own it and so the owning it is how do you own it you gift me I make myself vulnerable to you and I say oh my God right I can't be God without you making me God and I limit myself and I say I'm going to love you so much that I'm going to give you the capacity to hurt me I'm giv you capacity to choose even when you choose against me wow right I love you that much right and it's like so I'm giving you power and and maybe last sentence Andre and I I turned to you brother but this is this by Anthony means the Mysteries are within us we know that this is true right in other words if I love you right then if we can't find each other we're like ah right so I'm let me just let me just I'll I'll close with this just Personal Image so so Andrew and I have known each other for for a long time but at different levels of of closeness and intensity sometimes farther apart for a few years and and the last you know several as we've talked not not every day not every week not every month but we we were in dialogue so if I write Andrew a note or Andrew writes me a note and we don't get back to each other fairly soon we're like huh where did go right where did Mark go right it's like it's a because because we're being intimate means I give you power over me right that's what that's what intimacy means right and so there's this God the infinite inate says I so want to be inate with you I'm going to give you power over me and more than just needing to talk to you I'm giving you the power to make me more whole and when you do that you've now earned as it were the fullness of your own Divinity and my desire My infinite Divine desperate desire is to give you that gift so that's that's this invitation this demand that we participate in the evolution of God and only in that context can respond to the meta crisis because only in that context can a human being actually feel welcome in the universe and actually play out the gorgeousness of AOS and not be seduced into the the demonized forms of pseudo AOS which lead directly right to existential risk either the death of humanity or the death of our Humanity describing was was you just describing demands that we honor the significance of relationship with each other on all levels at all times and not not not allow to be any lapses of attention and care or for for respons right right like no distance right it's like it's that and it's it's it's precious it's precious so I want to respond to but first I wanted to just mention that um I don't believe this is this is my conviction this so this is so this is Andrew's imperfect realization so my conviction in the context of my imperfect realization is that that God being God is incapable of being [Laughter] bored and I'm saying this is my my deepest intuitive conviction which is which is inherently imperfect but I wanted to to say that in terms of just well would it be like to be God and since I am God I'm not acting from from him and her I don't think it's possible for me as him and her to ever ever be born but I could even even I I could become curious about something else that was possible without ever experiencing a moment of boredom that's a good distinction by the way between curiosity and boredom I think is a great completely aligned in that it's a great distinction and that Curiosity could just as I was describing earlier you know become more more powerful more perform more demanding more overwhelming until it until led to its destination of splishing the creative process so and of course I don't think God's capable of being bored because he or she is so inherently en raptured with his or her own natural state of being at all times in all places in all circumstances and Bor would be an impossibility because the she's always experiencing this around perfect delight and delightfulness but I wanted to get back to your deeper point about um the inherent obligation of Awakening that's what we were speaking about I wanted to respond to them because I feel very much in alignment with what you were saying and I feel I feel this is a very very important point it's very simple really but it's but and because what a lot of people don't get in this in this in the age in this postmodern moment of hyp Psych Psy psych psycholog psychologization of The Human Experience it's hyper preoccupation with our our traumas and our pain and our fears and our suffering we we easily lose the plot then there's a God context in which which gave rise to our being here and which is running the show it's almost like we got stuck in a movie on that we showing bad reruns of movies and we kind of forgot who we were where we were going so we got lost in the drama of our small cell which is nothing new and most people get lost in drama the small self and forget there's an internet there an internet context that we're all participating in here which we tend to forget about so it's the spiritual awakening is the remembrance recognition of this Cosmic context that we've been participating in from the very beginning and in that Rec in that remembrance we ReDiscover our true nature our divine nature our inherent Divinity and the fullness of our divine nature and the fullness of our Divinity and the the glory of our Divinity and to get back to what you were saying the inherent Dignity of our Divinity and awaken to the inherent Dignity of our Divinity is I believe the ultimate solution to our Neurosis to our appalling shame self-hatred contempt small mindedness pettiness and loss and superficiality and kind of a meaningless meaningless existence so I've been trying to tell people for 30 30 35 years that Awakening to our inherent Divinity is this is the solution you don't have to work anything out really except that if you work out your own inherent Divinity but you do it for real you so much of your guilt and your shame and your self-hatred and your unresolved emotional issues will find a resolution and being able to embrace the fullness of inherent to being which you're experiencing yourself and now but in order to do that of course we have to do what all the great great realizers and religious realizers have done which is we have to announce which means give up our attachment identification with a small cell with its stories and that's the problem I've seen a lot of people awaken to this to their un inherent Divinity and and realize they un inherent dignity and suddenly suddenly sit up without being told to suddenly sit up sit up straight and have a twinkle in their ey there's a fear a fearlessness and exuberance and huge yes begins to vibrate and perminate their whole being simply because they've realized that their own inherent Divinity and their own inherent dignity and all of the guilt and the shame and the fear and the doubt and self-hatred and the small mindedness soly vanished in light of that and and and so this this kind of Awakening is is the solution to the human predicament it always has been but it remains to be the answer to the human predicament even in the midst of the complexity of the postmodern ERA this metamodern m with there even this time between world as Zach likes to say The Awakening to our own inherent Divinity is the ultimate solution for all of us personally and at the highest level for all of us collectible we expand out what that actually means what implications are but I find so many of us so seem to be so hypnotized by these the story of the small cell it tends to suck up all of our attention and distract us most of the time and we forget how inherently Divine and how beautiful and how enlightened we can actually be or always already are if we wake up to that fact we don't need to suffer so much we don't need to experience so much terrible suffering so much grief and resentment we just don't need to do and now one along the same lines what I realized a long time ago I contined to realize what I find most people just don't want to have anything to do with is that God principle which is the some totality of everything that exists and everything that does not exist as an anthropomorphic sense Second Face of God the ey form of God we realize that God as a Divine being we could say one could say at level of experience seems to want all of us wants to devour all of us in love it's very selfish I want I love you and I want all of you from my own self but of course God does not want us for selfish reasons God wants us for selfish reasons because if we if we love him and her with all of our heart unconditionally radically absolutely completely once and for and forever we will be serving that Divine principle for all of for the rest of our all the rest of our days and we'll be serving that Divine principle choicelessly ecstatically endlessly and ecstatically Mon and Trav and when that begins to happen as I was saying earlier we realize this is the reason I was born it was for this task full purpose for this obedience to my to my true nature and to ultimate nature that I've been born and when you when when we actually realize who we are at this non-relative ultimate ultimate level it it makes absolute meaning and purpose and and radically and ultimately absolutely validates our existence in all our imperfection as Mark and as as Andrew which it's it's it's a total release because wounds I'm utterly perfect for the job i' I've come here to to do and all I've got to do now my life's become very simple is to do it with all my heart that's all I need to do from now on is to live live this life as pral as I can for the sake of this God principle that that's my Liberation that's my Dharma that's my destiny that's my duty and if I'm able to remain there not swerve to the left and swerve to the right and be tempted and distracted and lost by other significiant I don't need to doubt so much I just need to trust and trust and trust and trust and trust and give everything and be true and be true and be true and the rest is out of our hands but it can be so ridiculously simple and I've seen so many people awaken to this beautiful simple truth I'm trying to conate and experience the dignity that you were talking about in the self resect the automatic self resect and glory of God the glory and goodness of God and experience that freedom instantaneous to without having done any work and then get distracted by this or that or something else and then they fall from grapes they get lost back in their own story all back to Earth so it's it's hard to be simple it's hard to be one point and simple about all this and living the religious life and arest I think is keeping it simple every day keeping it simple and one point and simple one point simple simple absolute at one pointed simple absolute one pointed simple absolute one point I think we we need to bring this this more sophisticated understanding of what this non-relative dimensional reality actually means back into the picture because a very sophisticated relative mind cannot cognize that was transcended especially its own absolute nature you can't get it until and only when it does will it understand half the things I've been saying so now we become so sophisticated that this absolute dimension of Life absolute dimension of reality this the domain of the doil become harder and harder to reach harder and harder to find this we become so smart and so sophisticated and so clever and so proud of our cleverness it makes us all so much more disol so much more frightening I I agree with you that now more than ever we need to awaken to these perennial truths to save ourselves and to save each other s amen amen amen just just one one more word is that as you as you've been saying and as I've been saying from From perspective of absolute nonduality the created principle needs us to do this needs mean you wonder who I'm pointing to I'm pointing to you everybody that's the overwhelming truth from from the perspective of absolute nonduality you thou art that you are it so every everything that we want to change and needs to change is completely dependent upon you or me not on anybody else not principle that exists outside you and it's it's a metaphysical truth that when Embrace will liberate you and overwhelm you and terrify you and inspire you all at the same time and make meaning for make absolute meaningful out of your life so I encourage everybody to try and follow these simple principles if you can if you have the heart will to take you back home and God needs you God needs you God needs you do needs all of us she needs all of us desper urgently radically and complete when once and thron forever amen amen amen oh beautiful beautiful beautiful and I'm beautiful there's there's so much to say but I'm thinking we'll you know we'll we'll hold here and kind of open for questions I began and and so it's good for you to finish I don't want to do another piece although what we feel is just to say right there's there's at least 10 more critical things to clarify here right you know in other words in terms of like what this experience is and it maybe it'll be for a different conversation it's how do I experience my story how do I experience my my small self how do I experience the love of God right this one of the places where where we we we cast and tell those story in complimentary but different ways that are important um but but let's hold here let's hold here this was this was wonderful and important I just want to note that we really focused on the evolution of God we we didn't focus on evolutionary parental we kind of got through with the first kind of third we didn't talk about evolutionary Enlightenment but we did focus on the the first of the three terms of the evolution of God in a beautiful and gorgeous way and I'm glad we did because you know everything of course flows from it but we did we did great so I'm thinking it's 122 right and you know and I'm hoping that maybe a couple of the questions if there are questions will allow us to maybe you know kind of elucidate or kind of clarify some of the things that you know are so critical to clarify here and again if we can't we live inside of a story but it's a true story a story of value and we're trying to just clarify the plot lines of the story here right so that we actually know mean to be a Divine actor in this story right in this in this way and the only way that there's ultimate dignity so anybody anybody Christa Danielle I don't know how the uh so let's maybe look at theat box yeah please yes thank you Mark thank you Andrew sorry for that the dog hears something goad so that that was very powerful thank you so much and uh please for everybody please write your questions in the chat box and we already have a few questions so I can start to read the first one from promote promote is saying in the sense of how the descending of divinity is dignifying which brings about the wholeness of the experience how are we able to translate this is more into our relative selves and in worldly exchanges where it might not always seem conducive to do this as per how the outer situation is perceived in some moments yay fantastic fantastic um so maybe Andrew I'll I'll pick it up and pass to you is that okay go forward okay so so that's great um thank you it's actually it's one of the things that I I I thought was really a great thing and a critical thing to clarify which is how do we look at our story right and this is is a very very essential thing and so end and I absolutely agree if I can I can speak for us and you'll correct and disagree if you disagree of course um that there is a story that needs to be moved Beyond right which is a story which is what I would call kind of recursive patterns you're stuck in a loop you can't get out of it the chatter right of the petty and contracted mind you know and I I I remember when I first you know entered into kind of the rabbi World which I was in for several decades and I still it's still kind of my original ground a couple came to me and I was like 23 and they had this big argument and I realized they were arguing about something that happened 37 years ago when I was a rabbi in Florida I this this didn't happen yesterday this happened 37 years ago why why why are we talking about this right and there was a pseudo Eros right in kind of reliv the conflict right and that's the kind of story we need to move Beyond there's a deeper version of story and I think that addresses your question and that story is the story that the book of creation it's the original text of Western lineages right it's about 455 words right and it says that reality is sapir sapphire which is kind of the the blue field of enlightened presence in the reality is also seur a story and I call that the antology of story meaning that my story is actually real and there's a way to live those same traumas and those same unique qualities of intimacy and the unique plotline of my life which is how the plot lines of Cosmos play out in my life and the unique interchanges and the conflicts and the places that I was born and the places that I fell and in my unique qualities of Shadow all of that becomes the stuff of my sacred autobiography I did it's not that I leave that behind it's that that itself becomes the playground of the Divine mind right the very sacred and serious playground right in the world which happens through my unique story in other words it's not that there so there's kind of like this there's story that I need to leave behind story level one level two is non-story I need to leave that behind or level one's the personal level two is the impersonal but then level three is story again right and and the personal again right unique self evolutionary unique self right in other words meaning it's it's the radical Embrace of my story right as a chapter in verse in the story of God right and so then I'm not going back and engaging my trauma as pseudo AOS right and so much of the much of the approach to trauma comes from Freud and how he talks about inhibition but Freud was a materialist so Freud by definition is dealing with pseudo Aros because there is no field of the infinite right there's not not a possibility there's not a I'm not a discretion of the infinite intimate into the unique qualities of intimacy of my life that if I work out and transform those and evolve those intimacies I've evolved God that wasn't a possibility for Freud right in any sense shape or form right and nor was it for kind of most virtually all of Western psychology so there's a way to engage trauma not as a place in which I'm lost in recursive Loops but trauma is what the cabala calls the original the original breaking the breaking of the heart and the breaking of the vessels and only when my heart breaks does my heart open right and and so so actually all of this is played out all of these are just words until I live them in the stories of my life and the stories of our lives so so we actually the the the ultimately there's no split in the absolute and the relative that's what nity means nity means there's no split you can't split between them there there's a relative split between the non right between the absolute and the relative but ultimately there's no split right it's it's absolutely relative all the way up and all the way down if you will or interior and exteriors all the way up and all the way down and that's the nature of reality and so therefore the way I actually you know the way I return to the marketplace in the 10th oering picture of Buddhism for example right or in you know a more advanced version of what we're calling unique self right and and Perhaps Perhaps the way perhaps that's the way authentic self is taught today I don't know how you're teaching authentic self today but it's it's that sense in which the personal and The evolutionary impulse actually meet in the deepest sense and we can actually have I'm going to tease my friend Amer for a second we can actually have a personal Enlightenment Fellowship it's a subtleties just between us right right we can have a personal Enlightenment you know Fellowship which is the personal beyond the something like that Andrew that's why I would begin to approach that thank you uh I'll just give a short answer to promote because I think other questions so promote um I think that um we have to learn to respect other people's boundaries because most people are only receptive and available as they can be and if we can feel that um they're not going to be receptive and available to our own deeper depths and Radiance then we should maybe keep it to ourselves but that being said I believe that if we're if we're true Seekers and true finders I think we should have the courage to live our realization to live our spirituality in public we should have the courage to come out of the closet so in in the West 20 30 years ago when a when a homosexual would um decide to be honest and transparent about their their sexual identity they what called coming out of the it so they will be transparent what their sexual preferences and I think that um the problem is that most of us live in a in secular societies where that are fundamentally materialistic by Nature So speaking about the spiritual convictions of sin as being form of Madness or Insanity or stupidity so I think that I think that at a certain point if you're if you're as as your realization becomes strong you develop what I call spiritual self-confidence you have have the courage to live your realization in public and not worry so much about what other people think if you have the courage but you only can do that if you have the courage to stand strong in what you know and not so concerned with other people's thoughts so the stronger that you are you want to you want to be a you want to be able to be a threat to their materialistic conscious or unconscious convictions because you love them but you have you have to you have to you have to you have to not handle this and have to handle these things and kind of hit the nail right on the head and be very accurate and appropriate in the way we behave which takes a long time to learn I'm still learning these things gorgeous yeah thank you the next question is from Christa she is asking I am still curious about the differences between evolutionary perennialism and evolutionary Enlightenment and what Andrew and Mark actually mean in their view that's that's a hard one simply because it's a great question simply because we focused on the evolution of God right and we didn't focus on either the term evolutionary Enlightenment or the term evolutionary pism but um it's 12:21 maybe I'll say you know TW minute summation of evolution pism and maybe and'll give us just a just or not a an illusion you know 90c illusion to evolutionary pism and a 90 second illusion you can't summarize to evolutionary Enlightenment so we'll just actually see them for a second if that's helpful right so evolutionary Paralis in a word right is the perennial philosophy right was this great attempt of modernity to say that there are Universal shared truths right that has been massively attacked by the academy but the Assumption of the kind of intelligencia that's simply not true that that's actually an illusion and that actually if you actually get the particularity of History right and you get the the the the sense that they're actually they're not shared truths there's socially constructed truths and they're by definition not Universal and these perennial truths for example about emptiness right that there's the shared sense of right emptiness meaning shunyata meaning Enlightenment even those right people like Jeffrey Kel will point out were were so radically different in every different culture right and they meant such different things that any notion of trying to kind of describe me as universal is basically silly and absurd because the notion of historical context and evolution destroys them right there's not absolute share truths right there's not an absolute share truth Called Love Love's constantly evolving and love means one thing 2,000 years ago means another thing now and you call them both love but that's just that's nonsense so so Paralis on two of those counts and we don't have time now but on six other counts plalism got destroyed right and what we're saying is that actually you can respond to each one of those critiques but at the core of the response let's just respond to one of one of them which I mentioned the split between Eternal perennial truths and evolving truths so in a word what we say is that the Eternal Dow is the evolving Dow in a sentence that there's a doubt now there's a ground and that ground is both eternity and evolution that eternity is not Everlasting time it's that which is beneath time that which is beneath time is the ground for that which evolves and so evolutionary parental ISM means we're actually saying the parentals in majority got something right they shouldn't have been dismissed we can actually reclaim the perennial tradition we can trace it actually all the way back and all the way forward right in time and find early protor brenal ists we can respond right to the critiques of modernity and postmodernity which are in part true respond powerfully and articulate a new vision of a shared Universal grammar of value evolutionary Paralis in a word that was that was two and a half minutes and whatever time under needs take please but that was just just just because we made that promise so Chris I appreciate you bringing it up that's that's a that's that's in a word right a sense of it I have noide I have no idea how to respond to the question what can you get can you give Andrew like a just a give give Christ and anyone else Just an Illusion to like I just gave an illusion the fragrance I I agree with everything you just said right right um I think Mark is pointing to a description Andre of 90 seconds of evolutionary Enlightenment in comparison to what Mark just said or just the different the different the different door in that it's going it's it agrees I think it it as you and I talked on I think Saturday it overlaps and everything but it's a different door which is particularly the door of Enlightenment right um um I think if I can I can give you a hint um you look at Andrew Cohen's book right evolutionary Enlightenment and there's a whole thing on kind of authentic self and you know that that you know I'm just just just a hint I literally don't know how to respond I think I think I think we more together then okay perfect perfect so let's let's let's let's bracket that let's bracket that and we'll we'll come back to but Christ was a great it was a great legitimate inquiry so you shouldn't feel you question legitimate question yeah leg I was I was just curious how they differ or what you would mean by evolutionary Enlightenment Andro I don't know that term so right so well well well okay I can I can explain what evolutionary Enlightenment means because because in the traditional traditional Eastern Enlightenment the round the being which Mark was just speaking about is which is the Eternal void that exists prior to time for time for space there's only this empty ground or the ground of being and and it's it's is saying perennial depth Dimension that is eternal and exists eternally for eternity and it is UN unknowable by the mind and because because it's a it's a it's a it's a state and it's saying no place that exists prior to time prior to prior to mind prior to any kind of existence of any kind it's a it's a place of un unimaginable inconceivable freedom and Liberation and infinitude it can only be known by direct experience so some of the greatest Eastern realizers like the Buddha himself and in modern times R Mahari and others and in today today's world would be a CLE speak very eloquently about the grounded being but they have deeply realized and deeply grasped it so the so the the Buddha felt and most of the most of the great e realizers feel that the the ground of being this this this internet no place that exists prior to the world and prior to time it's real because it's Eternal and unchanging and they feel that the the the created world the man manifest reality what we call The evolutionary process creative process is unreal because it's changing and it's and it's a place where birth and death exists Al the grounded being there's no birth there's no death there's no coming there's no going there's nothing nothing happens there and that they say that's the realm of the real and they felt that the world of change and the world of becoming world we call the creative process is seen as being unreal and relative in the place you want to escape from so in the traditional Eastern D you want to escape from you want escape from manifest existence which means you want to escape from identification with the body with the mind with desire spoke a lot about that and you want to get out of here you want to you want to go to that heaven that exists before the universe was even a thought and then rising in the mind of God so in eastern Enlightenment the idea was to escape manifest reality Escape Escape time and escape space escape the world of form and and mind and some of these greatest realizers actually did that but when you when you realize that the energy intelligence that created the universe the god principle he what Mark calls Aeros that God as as his grounded being created the created the world of time and space created the whole universe realize that the god principle wants the universe to exist and as a matter of fact the the universe to create a process is God in manifest form the becoming of the universe is God taking form and as as much God as the unmanifest in when you realize that God cre if God did God didn't want to create the universe the universe wouldn't exist so the universe only exists because God wanted to wanted it to exist which means it's inherent inherently Divine inherently meaningful and purposeful as we were speaking about earlier so there therefore in The evolutionary Enlightenment we we realize that we our Enlightenment now is not found by escaping from the world but by as in the ways we are speaking of earlier we use our Dharma our Dharma and our Destinies to co-create the world with the god Principle as the God princi not to escape from it not to shy away from it not to run away from it not to be free from it but to help it to evolve as us and through us so it's a it's a very it's a different interpretation of the meaning and significance of Enlightenment and spiritual realization with which transcends but includes the grounded being grounded being is the foundation is the foundation of the totality all reality at all times and all places of all circumstances but now we're embracing the Manifest existence as as as equally part of God and and who we are so that's why it's evolutionary Enlightenment and we realize this in the ways of got Mark and I was speaking about earlier that this realization means my destiny is Awakening to the god Principle as impulses to co-create the interior of the universe with an as the and genes that gave rise to in the first place so it's not about escaping is not about Escape anymore it's about procreation beautiful well thank you thank you for taking the time to that and Christa that appreciate Andrew and Christa we're both appreciating your question and of course we we didn't give it justice but we at least you know touch the fragrance so we're at we're at 12:30 we're at 12:30 yes and we don't have have any more questions so it's all perfect thank you so much what a delight what a delight everyone that was fun that super great super super fun and super you know the best we got that music coming on than you everybody thank you Mark thank you everybody [Music] n [Music]