The Modern Spiritual Predicament- ANDREW COHEN

um one thing that I find very troubling very troubling indeed is that it seems to me um that most people who who um are on this who are on different kinds of spiritual paths from one on one on one from one kind or another I mean I travel all around the world some people are into Tibetan Buddhism some people are into Sufism some people are into Orthodox Judaism some people are into very you know rather bizarre New Age approaches some people are even interested in what I'm doing but nevertheless most people with very few exceptions the very rare exceptions uh are fundamentally just out to themselves and this is this is what I have um I found very disturbing over the last few years over the last four or five years I've been teaching about eight years and it's something that I I um have tried to address as much as I can in my teaching as a matter of fact it's the most fundamental theme of my teaching um at the moment when I began to teach 8 years ago the message was anybody who wants to be be free can be free all you have to do is want it badly enough and it worked it worked because a lot of people did want to be free and some people temporarily wanted it badly enough to have some taste of what was possible um but I began to find that that even most of those people who come to me obviously were no different than people generally who go to anybody else turned out to be in the long run I noticed quite self-centered people so so what I'm trying to emphasize in general uh as I travel around and I try to emphasize it also with my with my own students many of whom have known me for quite a long time is that the that the spiritual path and that the goal to be attained on the spiritual path is not it's not for any individual the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is not for you it's not for me and it's not for any individual whatsoever um a lot of people think it's when you get to the end of end of the path that you wake up from the uh from the dream of individuality or the uh uh illus illusion of separation or the uh illusion of independent self-existence but I have met many people many many many people who have who have tasted for themselves who have realized for themselves already once once twice 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 times over the last 10 20 10 20 or 30 years that they have never been separate that they are that they are a part of the whole that they are at the very center of this explosion of in this explosion of light and in spite of that the way they live their lives where it tends to tends to express and Tents to demonstrate the fact that it uh that that it doesn't really that it's not all that clear that they really know that so what I'm trying to say is I feel that the way we approach the spiritual path the way we approach the path to Awakening is much more important ultimately than uh than many of the experiences that can that that can visit us along the way that so what what I'm really trying to to have people ask themselves is how big is one's perspective at this time no matter where one thinks one is at most people feel that they're not ready to embrace a bigger perspective because they have so many problems because they're so confused because there's so much insecurity because they just need to feel a little bit better because they've had such a hard time for so long and uh and I don't really think that's necessarily true as soon as possible if not immediately I think it's essential to begin to to uh ask ourselves you know what is what is the context that this that my own that one's own uh interest in in in Liberation is occurring is it does it really occur simply within the context of an isolated or personal life or is it simply or is it simply a part of the experience of being a human being that one becomes aware of a a spiritual longing or a religious calling of some kind and feels comp to respond to it you see because as long as we're as long as we're just out for ourselves as most people are no matter how far we get in our spiritual practice no matter how many experiences we have it won't necessarily set us free it's it's it's the context itself that this whole event is occurring the context that the illusion of the the seeming illusion of independent self-existence and separation occurs within and and the context that the context even that the experience of Enlightenment and Liberation occurs within that's what I think is very important for anybody who is serious about all these things to to Really begin to to look at it doesn't matter really where we think we're at it doesn't matter if we think we're free it doesn't matter if we think we're not free if we think we're enlightened or not enlightened or or very Advanced or mere beginners or or all the rest of it in order in order to ask these kind of questions asking oneself these kind of questions can if they're asked in the right way um bring one to a um a state of of of of real maturity real maturity and that's what's very very rare very very rare most adults are are quite uh not that mature I'm not that mature and unless unless there is a unless unless there an extraordinary degree of maturity has been cultivated um in a human life the way we we relate to whatever happen happens to us including uh glorious uh spiritual episodes will not lead to the the kind of transformation that is essential if anything genuine is really going to change on on this planet it it is amazing to me it is amazing to me how many um a s uh obviously simplistic uh and uh extremely superficial uh ideas are being uh are being accepted in the time that we're living in as as as truth you know sometimes it amazes me because I consider myself even though I'm going to be 40 pretty soon I still consider myself quite a young person and and it see you know and I to me of course I see my own life as existing you know within the within the within the context also not only in the biggest context but also the context of the time that we're living in it's like 1994 and in spite of that fact it's amaz if you just I don't I don't know how experienced many of you are in terms of what's going on in the modern spiritual world but if you pick up some of the magazines look at some of the spiritual newspapers look at literature and if you just see if you just see the the kind of um things that are being said some of it is very ridiculous a lot of it's very ridiculous because you see a lot of it is really appealing to that part of us that is looking for this easy solution to this to this extraordinary complex and a very subtle matter of what it means to be a fully human being and ultimately even a human being who has awakened who has truly woken up to what it means to be fully human that means a full dimension of what this mystery of being alive and being conscious of the fact that you're alive is all about you see and and to really to really even be to really even begin to get near that I think one has to stop seeking for the the the easy way out of the Simple Solutions like the pill you know it's like Prozac or something you it's true it's true it's true it's true and so very much of what is being uh the way the way a lot the way a lot of um the way a lot of people are are approaching their their their own spiritual well-being and their own uh Liberation is quite often it's not as I said before it's very self-centered because people are fundamentally looking out for themselves alone all they care about ultimately is theirselves that means feeling better and also are looking are not looking in in in a very serious way not looking in a very big minded or big-hearted way but looking for a way that just simply I want a simple answer to all my questions so I just don't have to think about it anymore and you see contrary to what many people may believe at least in terms of my own experience when some of the bigger questions seem to be answered when you one seems to be getting answers to the bigger questions then more subtle and more complicated questions begin to reveal elves that are very interesting if one's not afraid if one's not looking out for oneself it's if one's not trying to hide out and just feel better it's okay now I can get on with my life now because now I'm enlightened and I can get back you know to what you know get back to what anyway what is there to get back to in one's own life anyway this is this is but people don't often consider that they go to the retreat or they go to the you know the spiritual teacher or they do what everyone does on the weekend or the workshop or on the visit is it to wherever it is but what is it that we're going back to Al what is it that we want to run back to anyway and this is the kind of question I think that is more important than getting away in the first place but it's because of this this a general is a general or common um General lack of maturity and a general tendency to to to want to solve this riddle of life in in in in a quick easy fashion so we can get on with our own lives you see but this is true and you know and and ultimately of course as one begins to wake up more and more and more the this is what's that's what's supposed to change that one is supposed to be uh less and less concerned with one's own own life in the way that one was before less and less concerned about it in that very um in that very selfish way finally if such a finally ever exist and right finally finally we we get to that point where we're not where we're basically unconcerned about it where we're concerned with the with the mystery itself and that mystery is what concerns us more than anything else and and from that point on there's nothing to go back to there's nothing to go back to there's never anything to go back to ever and that's the whole point and I don't think that one can really you know speak uh in a serious way about what it means to be free unless one can really begin to understand these things that you want to get to a point where there's nothing to go back to and I I don't mean metaphorically right I mean literally so that means literally no matter where you are that that is that is more true to you than anything else you see but you see it's very difficult to get that far if we're if we're always in a panic to get back you see to our own life you see but what we but what we want to do of course now that we've had some Taste of something extraordinary that we can tell our friends about you know of course it it makes the it makes the the the life that we've been living quite often it's rather narrow what we've been living it it Sparkles it up it makes it shinier and a little bit more spacious temporarily so we'll feel better temporarily but and of course it's good it's better than nothing to have some you know a certain amount of insight that will help us to live our life in a way in which we we feel a little happier but what I'm trying to say is that all of this is much the spiritual the spiritual life when it's being lived as if we don't have any other life to live and as if we truly have no future it it's something very big it's much bigger than that much much much bigger than that so um and I'm speaking in this way because it seems more and more and more people are becoming interested in in spiritual life more people are interested in these things but that doesn't necessarily mean anything's changing you know I mean I know there are people that are saying this this is the new age baby this is the new age and it's the you know this great event this a revolution in human consciousness that is occurring on the planet and we're all a part of it I doubt it I doubt it and and you have to you have to uh understand that's coming from someone who accuses other people of being cynical is as long most people are are are approaching something so big in such a small way that kind of change that that many people are are declaring is true could not be happening it just couldn't be it couldn't be now I actually don't think such a thing is I don't think it's on the scale that that you know on the scale that some of the new age preachers tell us this thing is happening and on the scale that they seem to indicate you know in some of the ancient books that this kind of thing is going to happen I don't actually in terms of my own understanding of The Human Condition I can't ever foresee anything like that happening but there's nothing to get depressed about it's very funny how a lot of people think you know someone says that there's this big thing happening you see and and and that means in a short time I mean I remember I had a very serious talk right about this with a with a a very holy and very Orthodox Rabbi in in Tel Aviv a year ago he's a very holy man very holy man very very serious person and I said Rabbi now do you you really believe that um the Messiah is going to come oh yeah you know this is a very serious person you know he's he's not just a politician like a lot of these Fells can be very serious yes yes definitely the Messiah is going to come and uh and he and then he wanted and I I said and then everything's going to change in a very short time yes I said so what does that mean does that mean any day or a week or he couldn't be so clear how long it was going to take but it was going to be a short time compared to what I don't know but that when he came that you know but I don't see how is that possible if you because the thing is if we if we live in kind of a dream world and we and we'll be living in a dream world as long as we don't take ourselves that seriously as as long as we don't have the guts to look into the nature of our own mind you see in our own experience you know in a not in a non superficial way it's very easy to live in these kind of dream worlds and if you go to see a charismatic speaker you know they can lift you up and induce this kind of a certain kind of fervor that's oh you know that this this you know you know and then if you right and if you spend time you know regularly with people have many ideas like that you can almost believe it's true but that you know but believing something is true doesn't make it so doesn't make it so so you see it gives it gives it gives people a tremendous amount of security you see when we have when we when we allow ourselves in in in a very in a very obviously immature way you know to cling on to very fixed ideas you see about all this you see because there is this there is this uh you know essentially most people are terrified from from the insecurity of being alive and of not being sure and so in order to escape from this we you know we have so many ways we have come up you see come up with to to give ourselves uh to make ourselves feel safe you see to make ourselves feel safe it's not safe out here and as a matter of fact the more you want to be free the more guts you have to really be look very deeply into the nature of things you know without just wanting to escape but but but genuinely just wanting to wake up and w to know what's true there's less and less to hold on to less and less to hold on to less and less to hold on to until finally there's nothing there and I when I say there's nothing there it doesn't mean that there's nothing to know it means it means that there's nothing secure it's completely insecure it's completely insecure and this is the thing that whoever we think we are as individuals right whatever the ego is supposed to be right whoever we think we are as individuals has to find a way where it where it can bear that kind of insecurity of not being sure you see that means we're not being held in anybody's hands you know not in the messiah's hands not in God's hands not in our not in our own particular you know whatever our particular path is you see we're not being that's we're not being held by anyone right nor are we being held by any idea right and then and then then we then we really begin to taste the kind of insec Pur it and the kind of emptiness and the kind of Innocence that makes it possible to see very very deeply you know into this mystery it's it's a big mystery it's a big big mystery you know and the Mystery gets bigger and bigger you see because the more you wake up you know the more you wake up the more you see how mysterious it is you see to be you see to be more and more aware of the delicacy of what it means to be alive and and and and and and how important it is you see to be very very careful and concerned with what it what it is that we do and how it is that we live and at the same time realizing that somehow one isn't involved at all it's it's it's it's a big Paradox and it's very uh very extraordinary but it's very rare for people to get there for more than very brief moments because people always want to tie it up in a little box always want to tie it up in a little box you see and then get back to one's real life you see get back yes Diane hi Andrew hi it's nice to see you um you're making maybe some kind of a distinction between uh having uh spiritual experiences and what you're calling going back to your everyday life yes indeed yeah and some people say everyday life is the spiritual life and you seem to be saying that there's another kind or way of life and I'm wondering what are the ingredients or what takes place in what you're calling the spiritual life well well I mean ideally ideally what you see I think that spiritual experiences first of all are not ends in themselves and a lot of people forget that they're simply uh they simply reveal the evolutionary potential inherent in the race and that's that's usually exper experience or realized within the individual has the experience right the doors of perception open up and suddenly real oh my God the person says I didn't realize it was this big O you know it's so simple and you know Etc and someone realized in that moment uh not only how happy they are not to be worried about themselves you know for a few seconds but also but also they see in light in light of the Simplicity the utter Simplicity that's that's revealed to them at moments like that they suddenly see that that hum that that human life itself can can make absolute sense you know suddenly a person realizes a moment like that oh there is a way to live that makes absolute sense that that is in perfect Accord with this Revelation right because there's there's two fundamental questions there's two fundamental spiritual questions essentially and the first one is who am I right who am I and and the second one is how shall I live those are the two fundamental questions so what happens is so so the in the spiritual experience I'm talking about there's temporarily the qu the first question is answered you know who am I and when the doors are perceptional temporarily the question is answer oh and and what I'm saying is that's the moment to let go you see that those are the moments you see CU those are the moments that one really has the confidence and the conviction to let go but but because because of the fact that most people even before they go into this kind of uh uh experience are still fundamentally in a very self-centered condition and haven't even thought about what their what their real motivations are they usually don't it's just oh this is a great thing that's happening to me you see they don't often consider oh my God you know what are the what does this really mean what does this mean about what it means to be a human being what does this mean about what does this really mean very few people actually ask themselves this kind of question in a serious way and if they it's very superficial but they don't take it that seriously so uh so ultimately I mean yes so your answer to question is that that the spir that the experience of insight or spiritual Insight should ideally destroy life as we've known it you know ideally destroy life as we we as we have known it so there's nothing to go back to and practically that would mean even if you know even if our life would might externally look in certain in some ways as did before it wouldn't be it it just no longer would be so you see so in a sense when someone says the daily life as you as you said of course that's all there is there isn't anything but daily life and when someone speaks about daily life they're not getting the point there that's all we've got there's nothing more to this this is it but I this I'm what I'm speaking about is this dichotomy between this the experience of insight and the kind of life that most people are willing to settle for because it's the there's an enormous compromise that most people are willing to tolerate you see you see if we're very serious we have to get to the point the more serious we become spiritually one sign that someone's becoming more and more serious is the less and less of a willingness to compromise less and less of a willingness to compromise why because one has seen very deeply into the nature of things one has seen how simple It ultimately is and one recognizes how simple therefore one's own life has to be if one's life is going to be even a vague reflection of that absolute Revelation do you understand but quite often people you know become you know they lose their confidence very quickly they don't you know they're afraid of what other people are going to think they don't want to stand out they often don't have the guts you know the guts of the true Independence necessary for it and they right away they right away they start compromising you know because you see the whole the point of this is not to fit in you see the point is to break out samsara right samsara is samsara is simply it's it's a it's an individual and a collective mind State it's one that we all uh we all share together and we all cud in that's what samsara is we're all colluding in a in a lot of ideas and Concepts about what's true and about what's important that's all it is it's nothing more than that so when you temporarily break you know when you temporarily see through all that and you realize what is true and what's important never go back never go back but people usually do that's my last question what in your view allows people to maintain this view this big view of the truth other than staying around other individuals who are likeminded or around the teacher who manifest that truth what other what other means would there then be for us who have the occasional Enlightenment openings other than to stay with like-minded interested people in the truth and or a teacher who manifest it what what's the other option the other option go back to the self Obsession no no the only there's only one other option there's only other there only one other option is just not to go back to it and if and if one has to stay by oneself in one's own apartment and all the then then then one has to find a way not to go back you know not to go back it doesn't matter you you feel tempted oh no it's being pulled back no I can't do it you see but what are you going to do then phone rings Dingle lingling hi what are you going to say that's what that's but I mean that's what it gets down to you see the phone rings oh you're on the spot you see are that right away you're being tested at that moment you see that you see that's but that's so I mean so again you know one one can only one does one does the best that one can but but the best that one can you know what that really means is entirely dependent upon how serious one is you know so some people are so serious that they you know that they're not willing to compromise and other people just feel why I can't I can't that's too much you see what I'm saying and so so again it all depends on how you know how with how much of a big mind and a big heart are we looking at this you see with most people there it's not that big of mind it's not that big a heart so we're just just concerned with you know you know now you know getting through this and getting through the next thing getting through the next thing and we we don't realize that everything we do know it's like it's the law of cause and effect which everybody's heard about is the law of Karm everything you know what we you know we everything we do affects everything else that's going to happen so every action that we take you know uh um is going to have future effects so uh as long as as long as we're willing to compromise it's going to just take longer and longer and longer to to extricate oursel from the whole condition and it's only by getting to that point where we're finally no longer willing to that there'll be any way of uh of ultimately finally being able to extricate ourselves from from the whole chain and that's just it's very simple it's very scientific uh I find yes sir hello living alone I I get very preoccupied with myself in your apartment well should I eat for dinner should I go shopping should I clean the place and so on and so forth and so I find myself longing more and more for Community which I think is related to what last speaker was saying uh and I wonder if you would comment about the idea of community in relation to this well I think well I think if someone's serious I think think it's it's essential it's essential it's essential to to be able to come together with other people but it there there there's there's several reasons why it's necessary one is because as Diane was saying it's very difficult to do this on one's own because you know in a sense and you know and I'm not a cynical person but don't take my word for it I accuse other people of cynical every for the person who truly wants to go all the way they're very few but even for the person who thinks they want to go all the way you have everything going against you right you have generally the whole culture that we're living in is going against us cuz anybody who's that crazy that wants to awaken that much say are you okay you know it was okay when you were doing yoga and when you were going away on the weekends but now you know you know I'm you know U my you know my my uncle is is a therapist and would you please go see [Music] me so basically everything's going against you because the you're living the culture is going against you and even your spiritually minded friends might say hey don't you think you're going to don't you think you're going overboard okay so so they so you have the everything going against you that way you also have your own your own mind which is also to a large degree is going to be reflection you see of of all of all your ideas and all your Concepts many of which are not only your own you see so just as your friends and your family maybe or whatever are going to be telling you that you're really going overboard your own mind is going to be saying well you know you're crazy you don't want to do you know and then then you'll be then then you'll be terrified you see enormous fear Rises up when you you see the the the greater the degree of insight you know into the truly Stark nature of what this is all about you people because people make this make this picture of angels singing you know and love it's all about love only well you know looking at it from one way it's true it is only about love right but but TR but true love right true love you know the not the syrupy kind you know not the kind you know that we hear of but true love is something that burns you know it's like a hot it's a fire it burns very deeply right and it's something you have to be willing to make great sacrifices you see for to be truly worthy of and that's simply the way is it to LA but the way it's presented to us often it's this it's this big sugary thing that has very little to do with the way things are you see most people aren't aren't really worthy of it because are so they're so uh infatuated with themselves as individuals and they're so uh uh they're so distracted by fear that that that they're not they're not able to to let that kind of love truly embrace them and they're not able to truly respond to it because they're so immersed in some sorrow you see what I'm saying so so that's why your own mind which is again not only your own will be seizing up just as much as everybody else's will seem to be you know and you're going to start to feel more isolated more alone maybe you know you know slightly mad as a result of it so you see the question is then what do you do say oh who I got this I got to slow down this is too much oh my God I got to go for a walk you know have a cigarette go sit in the Park oh this is much better I was really losing it I was really losing it and then you know then you you know you postpone your plans you know and maybe uh go to the travel agent and cash in your tickets or whatever was you see ah you see and because then the fear is gone the fear subsides and you feel better you say well you see and because because most people are so fundamentally concerned with how they feel that because they feel better that means they think oh this is this now now this this is right and I was going crazy it doesn't work that way sometimes when you feel like you're going insane and you feel terrible it's because you're actually getting much closer to truth and the point is someone who's very serious about this has to be able to realize what's involved you know if when your approaches in a very big way you're you're challenging this the status quo not only of your own mind but quite often of of the whole culture you're living in as an individual it's quite a heroic task so in order to do that you have to be willing to fa to experience fear and insecurity and feel and also feel like you're going crazy and all the rest of these things and without concluding that that the fact that you're experiencing this kind of confusion discomfort means there's anything wrong it might actually mean that everything's right but because as was saying at the beginning that so many people approach Us in such a narrow-minded way basically feeling peaceful happy and full of some kind of pleasant feeling is you know is is often equated with truth and love and the experience of discomfort and confusion and all the rest of it is equated with the opposite of that but it's not always so it's not that simple it's not that simple so um so what I was saying to you so it's very difficult to do this on one's own and it's also very difficult to do it even if you even if you have the most ideal let's say such a thing will possible right let's say you have the ideal teacher right right the all right but the allseeing you know all compassionate all wise you know a Flawless teacher and let's say you have this vast you know community of like-minded individuals who are only interested in your Enlightenment and nothing else let's say such a thing actually were conceivable in this miserable world right let's say it's it's it still wouldn't be it still would be difficult why why why because in the end interestingly enough we're we're in the end it's always a personal matter it's always a personal decision how far we're going to go so even if you have even if the teacher is like you know is is you know pulling you you know to rise up Way Beyond you know where you ever could ever could have imagined going and if everybody else is saying yeah yes go you see it's it's still it's still not necessarily enough to do it it still has to be you have to be willing to let go you have to be willing to allow yourself to to you know let go of everything that you've been holding on to and be willing to embrace a much larger perspective so oh but the other reason why I feel it's so essential to have the you know Comm to community or like-minded individuals to spend time with to spend time with them is because I feel that I feel that the spiritual experience you see is not a personal matter you see when when someone as I was saying before has a spiritual experience their heart opens up temporarily and they get a much bigger go oh my God this is beautiful you see but for most people it remains just this inner experience you know we go away we see a teacher we do the workshop or whatever and this thing happens to us and we quite often go back to our you see I I feel that the law of this law of Love or the truth of of the absolute of the truth of God if you want to call it that has to be proven by those individuals who consider themselves truly serious about all this so that means that for someone who is serious the the the barriers that human beings the barriers that we that we um create the barriers that we create that that create the illusion of of of Independence that create the illusion of separate existence you see between us right that make the experience of true intim intimacy such a rare event has to be ripped down right you know through conscious intention by those individuals who consider themselves to be very serious about all this because you see the spiritual it's not just it is not just a matter of the individual having some inner experience oh now everything's great if it is that great you have to prove it and right as far as I'm concerned and that means that you have to prove that you're capable of of of of love and it means you're capable of being truly intimate and I'm not talking about sex here or I'm has nothing to do with sexuality at all right you can you can be very sexual and be not be any real intimacy so I'm not speaking at all about that right this these these barriers that we that we you know that we have uh um that we have set up that to keep others separate from us right and keep the experience of love you know such a small matter must be ripped down by those individuals you see who claim to be interested in these things you see because someone says they're really serious about spiritual life but if you look at their life objectively there's very little true intimacy you know and they just like everybody that have their you know Affairs and all the rest of it you know they these isolated little kind of you know it attempts that it doesn't mean any you know it's not it's it's it's not you see what I'm saying that the spiritual life it's not a personal matter see this is it has to do with the whole human condition as a whole right none of us as individuals are half as are half as independent or separate from the h as we think we are right we're just like a little dot in this mass in this in this mass that is trying to evolve you know so you get what I'm saying so we have to prove that it's possible and then the spiritual life really really begins to mean something not just because because we begin to feel better and we suddenly be able to think more clearly we're not so afraid of our mind anymore but because this law this law of love you see is actually manifesting itself through us and through those around us in a way that that has real evolutionary significance for the whole you see and you see for the whole because anytime any one or two or three individual individuals proves that it's possible to come together in in in true love and trust and intimacy you see for the for the right reasons that means that means that in a sense the Messiah has come you see then it's really happened you know right now and we're not waiting for some you know fictitious event you know this never going to happen anyway you see but then why is it happening because we're really doing it and right and by really doing it means we're willing to put ourselves on the line we are willing to be the we're willing ourselves to to be the to sacrifice ourselves to prove that this is possible then it all it's all very real then we're not lost in metaphysics you see we're not lost in metaphysical possibilities and all these grandio ideas that can kind of get us High you know when we're sitting at home reading books or talking with friends late at night but that's just a dis all pipe dream it's like an ego trip you know it makes you feel good to paint these you know glossy pictures right but if you if you're really put to willing to put your own blood your and your own guts excuse me you know to speak in a vulgar way about it but I mean I mean very literally it's all very real it's all very real right now and the the immensity the immensity of it all you know becomes very apparent to you it becomes very real you're in it you know you're you're breathing every time you breathe you're you're not separate from it you know it it's conscious that it's fully conscious fully present there's no future in it right except except of course if one realizes even in the midst of that much love and that much um uh and that much thrill you know that one still see see I'm still holding back in spite of I'm still you see then there's future but but even though even even in spite of that you still you know you're in it this is very real you see you're not living in this in this kind of fantasy uh spiritual uh world thank you very much just want just want as yes sir in the back hello what does a truly intimate relationship look like it looks good what does it look like let me ask you this someone is working at a job they have a relationship they have responsibilities but they're working on themselves and one day they wake up they wake up but they can't just walk away from responsibility so they go to the office the next day but now they're enlightened they have hold you're assuming quite a bit here you're you know you're putting you're assuming quite a bit you just said now they were enlightened but you should no listen you were saying now they're enlightened but they couldn't do because believe me if they woke up that much I'm sure they like their the way they would see things would have changed quite a bit you know I mean the Buddha is an example of that well what happens when people are having a truly a truly intimate as opposed to our ucer well you see sir again in order to understand what that means we have to ask ourselves what is the intimacy based on there's all kinds of intimacy that can be experienced in life right like when two people want the same thing like let's say both people want to sleep together they want to have sex together right so up to that point and maybe during it for a little while there going to be a certain kind of in because both people want the same thing or if you see great musicians play together right at that you know in the moment of you know certain moments is an incredible intimacy right so people come together for all kinds of reasons maybe two people want to get together because they want to make a lot of money so there's a certain kind of intimacy that's shared because they have the same desire but what it but you see the kind of intim in intimacy I'm speaking about is a result of the fact that two people come together or more because because they because because they want to know what's true they always want to know only what's true and they don't want to hide behind anything else or even pretend anything else could you know is so so two people come together only because they want to know what's true number one and because they and because they they make an agreement that that's what they that they want to respond to their Mutual to the mutual ongoing exploration revelation of that which is true they want to be able to respond to it fully without hesitation without reservation I'm speaking about something very ideal so it's an it's an intimacy then that would B based on a the mutual interest that we don't want to pretend we don't want to pretend and we don't want to hide and we're not we're not we're not looking here just to to to feel better you see what I'm saying it's you see so intimate intimacy based on what and that's something one again has to has to really decide beforehand in so I would say you know in terms of the way I teach would be based on an interest in the in the truth alone at at any cost that's a very different kind of intimacy now there's there's also kind of kinds of intimacy that people share like they come together two people and like it's either it's unconsciously there's kind of an agreement you know we're not going to talk about this we're not going to talk about that I'm not going to push too much you're not going to you see so they feel very comfortable you know they feel very you know very buddy buddy or you know whatever you know very cozy together CU they know there's nothing there's nothing to fear really this person is not going to is not going to push me and I'm not going to push them so we can have a great time together so they're experiencing a certain kind of trust a certain kind of intimacy but it's based it's already based on the on on the mutual willingness to compromise the great deal you see so so intimacy when it's when it's truly profound it happens when two or more individuals come together in such a way that they agree that they don't want to hide and I'm right so this doesn't mean this kind of morbid therapeutic constant probing which is kind of unpleasant business you know and I don't necessarily think all that evolutionary either I right I'm not speaking about that but then when you come together in that way when you truly don't want to hide there there something something very um it's something very mysterious but but there's a certain something very something very miraculous begins to happen which is a which is a knowing of that which is sacred in a way in in a way that that that that that's no longer uh it's no longer an individual matter you see this what we're speaking about it uh then becomes uh apparent to all those involved simultaneously you see there's something impersonal there's something impersonal that's being given attention to here and that which is impersonal in this sense transcends the the significance of the experience of any individual you see because and coming together in this way the personality and the significance of the of of the of the indiv idual characteristics of any particular personality don't become completely irrelevant but they become secondary and there's something else that become that makes itself apparent and it can in in in a situation like that that all the individuals become aware of and and this is what this is what uh this is what creates this kind of experience of intimacy I'm speaking about and it then that and that kind of intimacy is a very uh it's like a religious experience but it's not just like a big Blaster you know it's it's very deep and it's very it's constant you see and I think that uh and I think that um that what I'm speaking about right now is a large part of of what this evolutionary leap or this kind of mutation that you know that the great chrishna mury was speaking about is actually all about it's not just a personal matter it's not just it's not only a personal matter it has to do with it had this what I'm speaking about occurs when when at least two or if not more people are involved you see and then there's a kind of being together right that you know that's very that's very sacred you see because the the the fact of the fact of Oneness or the fact of non-duality becomes readily apparent and at the same time the the individuals are able to fully experience what it's like to be themselves you see and now what does that really mean this means that this means that what's com into the for foreground what's in the foreground is is the fact of our true nature right right and and the individual characteristics of the personality and and all the rest of it has assumed its rightful position which is in the background not in the foreground you see and so then if if several individuals can experience this together it's a completely different kind this is the kind of intimacy I'm speaking about and it's uh it's it's something that and so then if if several individuals can experience this together it's a completely different kind this is the kind of intimacy I'm speaking about and it's uh it's it's something that is um you know I I think that it's it's it's it should be a fundamental um an ongoing you know facet of of of of of a TR you know of the Holy life of of of a real spiritual practice very good so we'll go a little bit longer and then we're going to finish because I think we're supposed to stop at 4:30 okay just this yes uh I forgot what your name was Drew Drew okay i' like to go back to what you were talking about before about the spiritual Community um you know clearly it it it would be easier to destroy one's life uh as as one knows it and and to have nothing to go back to if one joined a s or lived in an asham or renounced the world and so it's not that simple I because it's not that simple because also you can also you can also it all depends what kind of community you're speaking about because it's also very easy to escape into spiritual Community it all depends what is everybody doing there are people into hiding no it's true it's true what are people doing people ah la la you know it doesn't matter what are people doing are they are they really facing what's happening there are people escaping or are they really waking up so don't let's let's not assume that it's automatically easier okay right so obviously then the nature of the community and the like-minded people matters a lot what everybody's actually doing sure but um there are some teachers I'd like you to comment on this who who want who don't want to form SAS and who want their devotees to do their work in the world their Dharma and to try uh as they move on the spiritual path to be Al lighted unto the world and they they they don't want to gather anyone around them or around their teachings and and I wonder you know how you feel about this cuz I'm reading of more and more of these teachers uh I look whatever works I mean I mean it quite honestly you know because it just whatever truly works is is is all that really matters but the point is if these people are really being lights unto themselves and Def and even more importantly unto the world in a way that's truly dynamic and and and as long as they're truly not fooling themselves and trying not to fool other people if they're really genuine this real genuine it's great but I find it hard to believe because this kind of thing doesn't happen so easily oh everybody suddenly lights into the world in my own experience with time it's not quite that simple but there's this other you know getting back to this other question is that I think I think we have to prove that it's possible so if we want to be lightsome to and so then if if several individuals can experience this together a completely different kind this is the kind of intimacy I'm speaking about and it's uh it's it's something that is um you know I I think that it's it it's it should be a fundamental um an ongoing you know facet of of of of of a true you know of the Holy life of of of a real spiritual practice very good so we'll go a little bit longer and then we're going to finish cuz I think we're supposed to stop at 4:30 okay just this yes uh I forgot what your name was Drew Drew okay like to go back to what you were talking about before about the spiritual Community um you know clearly it it it would be easier to destroy one's life uh as as one knows it and and to have nothing to go back to if one joined a SA or lived in an asham or renounced the world and so it's not that simple because it's not that simple because also you can also you can also it all depends what kind of community you're speaking about because it's also very easy to escape into spiritual Community it all depends what is everybody doing there are people into hiding no it's true it's true what are people doing people ah la you know it doesn't matter what are people doing are they are they really facing what's happening there are people escaping or are they really waking up so don't let's let's not assume that it's automatically easier okay all right so obviously then the nature of the community and the like-minded people matters what everybody's actually doing sure but um there are some teachers I'd like you to comment on this who who want who don't want to form SAS and who want their devotees to do their work in the world their Dharma and to try uh as they move on the spiritual path to be a lighted unto the world and they they they don't want to gather anyone around them or around their teachings and and I wonder you know how you feel about this because I'm reading of more and more of these teachers uh I look whatever works I mean I mean it quite honestly you know because it just whatever truly works is is is all that really matters but the point is if these people are really being lights unto themselves and Def and even more importantly unto the world in a way that's truly Dynamic and and and as long as they're truly not fooling themselves and trying not to fool other people if they're really genuine this real genuine it's great but I find it hard to believe because this kind of thing doesn't happen so easily oh everybody suddenly lights into the world it does in my own experience with time it's not quite that simple but there's this other you know getting back to other question is that I think I think we have to prove that it's possible so if we want to be lights into the world and some kind of IND if you want to go out into so hell so to speak or into some and be able to say hey everybody there's another possibility before you you have to prove that it's possible within an environment where you know where where other people are actually interested in it because of course that's that's a place where you're really going to be tested also because let's say you've woken up a little bit more than everybody else it's very easy hey you know just see be it seem like you're doing great but what if you're in a situation where you're not the only one you know where most of the people have woken up to a certain degree then you know then you're then then you're being tested much much more you see and then and then and then if there's real Integrity in the situation it's always going to be farther to go it's always going to be more you see and then you see then if if you test yourself in a situation like that and you can prove you can prove your integrity and your Independence prove your Independence in a situation like that then if you want to speak about it going out in a in a sense to show the way for other people I could I I would accept it but um you know the thing is that that this thing of teachers you know having followings and all and all the rest of it's it's basically it's it's it's people are very cynical about all this because quite frankly many many of the teachers that have done this in the last 20 or 30 years have made a big mess of it you know they've made a big mess of it and they've proved themselves unworthy and and the result of their work has has has uh has created a lot of cynicism and skepticism as as to the point of all all of it in the first place and this is why the whole notion of people coming together in spiritual Community you know uh in this way has if people um don't think it makes sense and don't really think it works because it most of the time it hasn't worked and there reasons why it hasn't work but simply because it hasn't worked doesn't mean that that something like that is not is not uh uh essential essential because you have to understand that the that what happens in in spiritual life and spiritual Community it's it it should be I feel it should be in a sense at the very foreground of the of the experiment in evolution at this time at any time you see because it's easy for people just to sit back and speak about evolutionary possibilities but when people get together to really try and do it to try and prove it with their Flesh and Blood you see with their own life that's when it's actually occurring so whatever would be happening in places like that should you know ultimately you know mean a lot for every for everyone for the people there and for everyone else you see but unfortunately so much of what has happened you know in the last 30 years H has been very disillusioning for many people and so people have like thrown out the baby with the bath water and I don't think uh and I think that's too extreme a response even though it's very understandable why why it has why it has happened but believe me this the path of Awakening and what's involved it's far it's very very delicate it's very very complex and I've said it's possible to wake up to a significant degree and still be very diluted you see but you see because if you as I'm saying if you have woken up you know to a certain degree and you and you and you go out and you're spending most of your time with people who haven't woken up at all it's very easy to think that you're far far far Way Beyond where you are do you see do you see what I'm saying and and then and then of course the one's going to start being a teacher then one's going to be giving people you know a very imperfect uh transmission or teaching of really what it's all about and then you know maybe everybody will find out 30 years later because I understand it's in the spiritual Community is is should be should be largely a testing ground then how Proving Ground testing ground how does one know when one is ready to leave it and go out into the world what to show the light to to be a light for other people whatever to be life for other people or to escape into some sorrow the for oh okay uh well I suppose when you know when one had proved oneself to oneself and to you know and to everybody else think you'll kick you out sometimes when it's time right uh right but I'm but I I'm I'm speaking about a slightly different Paradigm like you know people say because again the the way that you know what you're saying implies the situation that you're in this kind of Nursery pres school and when you get get to get to ready get ready you know to be a big boy or big girl then you got out into the world and I think that a real spiritual Community should be a place that is like a heck of a lot more challenging and more difficult to live in than than the Ordinary World you see so again this is this is what you know what you're speaking about and what you brought up it's it is the common Paradigm and what many people associate with spiritual Community but I don't think it it should that it should be but it is because of what has happened you know in the last 30 years or so but I don't think that that's what it really should be it should be it should be it should be a place that where people who wen't weren't really serious about it wouldn't be able to survive anyway and it's much more challenging than just living in a world where no one's going to challenge you and and and and fundamentally the law is compromis anyway