Andrew Cohen & Ken Wilber: Trust & Creativity

One issue I always wrestle with is once we surrender to the the creative principle as you call it, how do we know it has our best interest in mind or how do we know if we surrender that we are acting on behalf of something a better future? Okay, so you asked two different questions here. I want So the first one you said, how do we know it has our best interest in mind? And the second was how do we know that it has the future's best interest in mind? All right. Well, let me answer both. It'll help me. Okay. So the the first one is this this what I'm calling authentic self or this creative principle. You have to understand it is it is it's a function of consciousness. So there is nothing personal about it. There is nothing personal about this creative principle when it when it is experienced at the level of consciousness. It's experienced as an ecstatic compulsion that is inherently self-liberating. In other words, you experience instantaneously your own liberation to the degree you that you become aware of it or experience it because because because when you are utterly captivated by this compulsion to create the future, you you you experience an instantaneous release from all self- concern. So that part of you and that part of me doesn't care about you. What was your name again? Sorry. Paul. It doesn't care about Paul and doesn't care about Andrew. That consciousness that is felt as ecstasy doesn't care about you the vehicle or me as individuals. It what it cares about is is to um uh make manifest the unmanifest potential of the next moment. The individuals involved um to consciousness itself are irrelevant. Okay. And that's that's where we come into this because of course we have our pul say wait a minute there's a human dimension all this and that's of course what we bring into it. Now in relationship to to to the second part of your question I mean how do you know because part and parcel of a of the kind of perspective that that we're speaking about is is you is you is what you begin to see is um uh is a higher order like is a higher order. So when when you directly uh intuit it or cognize a higher order that does not yet exist, it's experienced as a as as a as a kind of harmony or fullness or or integration that that makes a deeper and higher sense out of everything that it's that it's it's self justifying. I mean, that's not really the right word, but it's you, you know, it's I mean, it's almost like you can hear, you know, it's a ridiculous metaphor, but it's almost like you can hear the angel singing. You can you you start to see how everything because these higher structures are are all higher and higher manifestations of that one without a second, right? It's always higher and higher manifestation of one without a second and a higher manifestation of one with and a higher one and a higher one and higher. So the higher it is the the the sense of being at the very center of of the universe of creation of seeing with the eyes of God. That's what it that's what the experience is. Now whether the individual is actually enlightened or whether there's some pathological maniac. I mean I guess I guess I guess I I guess everyone others would have to make up their mind about that. I mean Hitler obviously had his own visions too. There's one way to tell a little bit and this is more the sort of the panda side of the street that that when that higher manifestation comes down to the extent it's healthy you feel it resonating in all four quadrants something deeply deeply right so it's impersonal in the sense that it's a higher person that's not just just radically without person it's it's it's God in first person and it's also dealing with the world and and dealing with you and thou and it in a very and you can feel it resonating and when it hits all four quadrants as well. There's something very right about it. Yeah. If it hits just one or just the other, there's something inherently a little bit off and it's very seductive because you can get one or two of them and they really you go, "This must be right." But it's just resonated with the eye and it's not resonating with the thou or the wei and so on. But then that that harmonic, if it's less all four quadrants, it won't it won't be that that it won't be vibrating in in that way. It's so and even if you have to do a little check mark, even if mentally you have to back off and go check, check, check, check. Yeah, I know. Write that down. Yeah, check check. But all of us have to do that. I mean, Andrew is right on the money in terms of when when it comes down health, you feel it like that. It's create extraordinary sort of coming into manifestation of the next higher you. Yeah. And but then you can sort of stand back and reflect on it and go, okay, wait a minute. D. That's what critical reflection is for. you know, after the fact, you want to kind of come in and give a little review process because that that's how you can check with some of the stuff and get a little bit crazy if you So, he's speaking more like the felt side of that, like you feel that it's right and you're saying, "Okay, and it also fits the four, but it's also seen. It's felt seen." Yeah. And I guess the best seen as a whole, right? Now of course whether it is or not maybe we have to go through the checklist or not but if it's going to be what I'm describing that the that fundamental integrity would have to be there in order to in order to experience the the fullness of uh you know of the of of the of any perspective that could be called enlightened. Yeah. It has to have that fullness or that deep or higher integration. Um but you know that the that the the felt and seen you know the directly felt and seen dimension of this is always going to be is always going to be moving faster than your than your understanding of it. It's always going to be moving faster. So at a certain point we do have to trust that even if this feels we have to trust that what feels right is beneficial for the cosmos. We never ultimately know can we? Um well no well but we can't just like we can't predict the future. Well I think I no I think I think it has to do with the level level of experience and maturity you see because you have to understand if for example you know if this is true as the way Ken is describing it if you literally are pushing an edge if the question is if but if one is then you are inherently going to be uh occupying and exploring territory that is very new. In other words, either never nobody's been there before, maybe there have been a few, but it's it's going to be relatively speaking unknown territory. Okay? And so it takes a certain kind of courage to let yourself go that far. Okay? Because there and and of course there is a risk there. Yeah. But then of course if as one begins to have more experience you know and more maturity uh one begins to realize oh that's when I you know that's what I'm doing. I'm exploring I'm exploring new territory. I mean because so I think what I'm trying to say there are no guarantees here. And I think of course you know in the end I mean what Ken said obviously would be true if you know if all four quadrants would would be taken into consideration and you could see they're all being addressed and you could probably get the sense that you're probably on the right track. But still there when you're talking about pushing the edge there's always going to be an element of enormous risk. Now the risk is only felt by the separate self sense of the ego. The part of you that is pushing this edge the creative impulse doesn't experience it as a risk because pushing that edge is a function of consciousness at that level. It's it's literally seek it's literally trying to create the future. But it's when your human self as an individ individuated separate self that's an ego that sees him or herself as an individual human being begins to be filled up with that consciousness that's endeavoring to create create the future. You know two things are happening at once. The degree to which you identify with just that consciousness that's trying to create the future. There's no fear. But when you step back and start thinking about it, there can be a recoil in absolute terror. You see? And yeah. Yeah. And let let me play to the other side of that too because I think what Andrew is saying is very important and and you also have to balance it with a very there's a very fundamental mo moment in consciousness where you establish trust and that is that fundamentally you can't distrust what's arising moment to moment. So so that very moment of touching that's arising moment to moment you can't doubt that. If you did doubt that you would be aware of the doubter. So there's a very very fundamental movement where you are in basic trust of the universe is arising and that moment of contact of the universe when it's arising. That moment of touch is spirit. So you can't fundamentally doubt the existence of spirit any more than you can fundamentally doubt the arising that's happening right now. Right? So that arising so it's important to do all the things that Andrew is talking about. It's important to um then stand back and reflect. you know, does does this seem like it's resonating with all the different components of me such as the quadrants? But don't don't ever lose track of that fundamental trust because that that's the very nature of God in you that's touching this world. And you don't want to lose track of that and it's very palpable.