Pete Bampton: Conversations from the Heart - Honouring Andrew Cohen through our Stories

Welcome to Conversations from the Heart, honoring Andrew Cohen through our stories. My name is Daniela Bomatter. I was a student of Andrew's for 17 years, and for the past 9 years, I had the privilege of living and working alongside him. This series is a tribute to his life, his teaching, and the revolutionary fire he sparked in so many of us. Through these intimate conversations, we remember not only the man, but the depths of transformation he catalyzed in our lives. May these stories keep his legacy alive, honoring the sacred thread that connects us, and allowing his voice to continue resonating through ours. So, welcome, Pete, to these Conversations from the Heart. Welcome, Pete. It's great to be here with you. doing this with me, and I'm very curious where we will go. Like, this conversation, it's the ninth conversation now that I'm having. And uh they all unfold naturally, and and that's that's cool. I really love how how it all works. But, where I always start is with one question. How did you meet Andrew, and what happened there? So, if you want to start there, that would be excellent. I'd love to start there cuz it's quite an extraordinary st- Okay, so um I met Andrew in uh 1992. And um I was 27 at the time, and I would I was at a point in my life where I'd basically already pretty much given up everything, and dedicated myself one-pointedly to spiritual life. Mhm. And I had spent my early early 20s traveling and um exploring, and I found myself on a Buddhist meditation retreat in a forest in Thailand, and that's where I had my first uh blowout awakening to of non-separation, of non-duality, and uh I was always haunted by that, and that set me on a path of meditation, and basically in the context of Buddhism. So, I think a prior a year prior to when I came across Andrew, I had given up my life. I'd been living in Spain, teaching English for a while, and all I knew that I wanted to do was was go on retreat. And I felt that I was it would seem inevitable that I was going to be eventually ordained as a monk. Wow. I'd never I'd never really been a worldly person, and um it just seemed that was what was going to happen. And so, I ended up doing more retreats and living in a Buddhist monastery in England, which was part of a the Thai forest tradition, Theravadin um um Buddhism. Uh uh led by a a teacher called Ajahn Chah, an Ameri- not Ajahn It came from a lineage of Ajahn Chah, and it was an American teacher called Ajahn Sumedho, who pioneered the uh Sangha in the UK. So, that I'd done many many retreats uh in that um in that tradition, all of which had been very very profound and very inspiring. And then I found myself living in the monastery during a winter where I was part of a lay support team for the monastics who were on a retreat. And it was during this time that I actually began to get profoundly disillusioned with the actual life as it was being lived in the monastery. Mhm. And so, one thing led to another, and I gradually began to realize, "Oh my god, I'm not going to become a monk, because the the freedom and clarity and whatever depth that I'd experienced in in the retreats, uh I didn't find that was literally was really being lived uh in the mona- monastic setting, and in fact, on the contrary, there was a lot of heaviness, and um it seemed to me that people in the lay support team were were actually having a more um liberated and uh intimate and ecstatic time than the than the monastics on the retreat. So, it was a real crisis for me, because um suddenly I was like, "Well, what the heck am I going to do now?" You know, I I'd given up everything. I had no worldly desires. I didn't wasn't attracted to doing anything else. And um one day, I remember, yeah, I actually stood up in my room. It was after I I'd been reading a book, Daughter of Arena Tweedie, uh that spiritual classic, and I got to a point in the book where her guru basically said to her, "You know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear." Yeah. And I stood up in my room. I was like overtaken by a just a incredible longing, and I and I just prayed out loud. I was like, "Okay, I'm here, you know, I'm not going to be a monk, but show me, Lord. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing else uh that I want." And I was kind of overcome by this, and came to my senses, and then the next day, I went into the uh monastery library, and I wasn't really interested in looking in the sections of the library where I'd been interested before. So, I started looking in this miscellaneous section that had things like vegetarian cookery, and tarot cards, and chakras, and and just flicking through, and then I came across Andrew's first book, My Master Is Myself. Oh, wow. I pulled it out, and it and it even it it it gives me shivers even now remembering, because when I picked picked up the book and held it in my hand, the there was something immediately electric that overcame overcame me. And then I remembered that I'd a guy who'd been staying in the monastery earlier on had actually mentioned Andrew to me. I think he knew Andrew in the early days. Uh and and clearly this this man had had a profound experience with him. Mhm. So, I took took the book uh to my room, and just devoured it. And as I was reading it, and as as you know that that book is incredibly transmissive. You know, it's Andrew's diary of his whole process with Punja. I I began to uh ex- experience uh many of the same revelations that he he was describing in this book, and um uh to the point where I was I was completely overwhelmed, and and just uh my whole sense of self just shattered. And I remember walking out into the meadow after reading this book. I just put it down, and and uh and I was I was I I had a tacit recognition that I, as Pete, the historical personality Pete, had never actually existed. Mhm. And and uh and there was just this complete ecstatic recognition of oneness, Yeah. um of no separation, and never having been any separation. But at this and but at the same time, I remember as I looked up into the sky, there was this incredible sense of uh what I would call a divine demand. And it it almost felt like God, if you like, this overarching consciousness that I was uh realizing. Um It The sense of it was almost like as if he was pointing down to me with a big finger and saying, "You know, Yeah. you need It means you. Yeah, yeah, you need to die, Yeah. to me, me, uh in other words, your true self. So, I was also literally overcome with terror. Mhm. It was both ecstatic and terrifying. And um yeah, and then but I and then I but I just knew, "Oh my god, you know, I've found my teacher." Mhm. And and I I scribbled a a must have been a quite a crazy uh ecstatic letter. There was just an address on the back of the book. So, I wrote a letter to Andrew. I mean, I remember holding it to the um the post box. I don't know if I was holding it there. And I remember having this thought, "I Are you crazy? What are you doing?" Yeah. Yeah. And I dropped it in. I just dropped it in. And then um sometime later, I received uh a letter back from Andrew, and he told me that he was going to be in London that summer. This occurred in February, I think it was. And um what was interesting about that when I met him actually in the flesh, so there I was at the satsang. It was being held in Hampstead, some yeah, summer school in Hampstead, and uh and I never I can remember tacitly remember the moment when Andrew walked into the room, and I had an immediate recognition that we'd already met. Mhm. It was like nothing occurred, and I had a recognition, "Oh, we've already met." So, um and then, you know, then he began to teach, and then right at the end of the teaching, he he said, "Is there Is there a guy over there, anywhere over there, who sent me a letter?" And he pointed he pointed out there, and I said, "Yeah, it was me." And and then there was Yeah, and then I that was just an ecstatic uh recognition. Mhm. But, yeah, it's what's interesting about that also is is that there was something in my meeting with Andrew that immediately went was about beyond the personal. Yeah. Anything personal at all. And I I think that you know, defined my relationship with him in a way. And um yeah, anyway, maybe I'll I'll pause there. Yeah, I know that makes total sense and two two things struck me. One is I I do think that this sense of of a transpersonal relationship with Andrew is probably something that that we all shared or many of us shared. And and that's also where Andrew's teaching was pointing to and what he what he was trying to convey. And what was often misunderstood. That it's not impersonal, that it's not without humanity, that it's actually transpersonal and that it's just a meeting it from from a much deeper, profounder depths and not something impersonal where we don't see each other. And I think that's something that got lost a little bit like like this this insight that that this was what Andrew was transmitting and was pointing to. It was both. He was The teaching was pointing to and he was transmitting it. His whole transmission was that. And also what it what also struck me is when you say it pointed to you. That's that's another thing that I can really relate to that I always felt like Andrew's Andrew was or his transmission or or the guru in him was always pointing to us, to me. It it it means you and you have to live up to it. Not only surrender, but also live up to it. Yeah, it was always both like the surrender as you said, but then also the what are you doing with it? What what are you doing with what you what you see here? Mhm. Absolutely, yeah. And yeah, that was so beautiful. So and then you you joined him? You joined the Sangha or how did it that how did it go then? well what happened then was um so this was in 90 summer of '92. Yeah. So this was the time um it was like the beginning of phase two if you like about teaching. So I remember he um he started to give talks for the first time in this this these teachings. And I remember him just emphasizing in the context of the more impersonal dimension. He was emphasizing then that he he wasn't so interested in having personal dialogues with people cuz he'd been doing that for many years. And he also wasn't so interested in encouraging um what we could call a a devotional relationship with him. I remember I remember like a lot of people were leaving flowers by his table and and I don't know if he asked, but or maybe someone said, you know, Andrew doesn't want this to continue. So there there was some kind of shift where I think he was he was trying to take everybody into a a more transpersonal Yeah. place and um not not so focused on a one-on-one uh relationship with people. Um so he taught in London and then he and then uh Amsterdam and then Bern in Switzerland. So I just followed him. And there were a small group of us who were followed him on those trips and uh yeah, it was just an ecstatic you know, wild uh How many of you were were were you at that time that followed him around? There was a group of about six six or seven of us who kind of connected in London and then we kind of got together and we were we were actually paired up and we were hitchhiking across Europe. Mhm. Yeah, renting a place in Amsterdam or just just finding our way. Um yeah, a number of people who who uh who were my contemporaries in the community like Craig Hamilton, Susan, people who ended up working on the magazine. Yeah, yeah. There was quite a lot of people who met Andrew on that at that in that year that uh just you know, dove in and were deeply committed right from the beginning. Mhm. So for me after I got back from that trip, it was um it was very clear that I I just wanted to join. So at that time the Sangha, which was still in its relatively early days, was in Marin County. Yeah. And I ended up uh going over there. And maybe just one just to preface that in terms of a shift in my own process. So I was uh while I'd had this uh extraordinary um awakening when I'd read his book, I was by by disposition a very kind of quiet character, very contemplative, meditative, you know, and and kind of kept myself to myself. Uh but while at at the same time while I was with Andrew, I was having a lot of profound insights and revelations, which I would write to him about. Mhm. And but something very significant happened. It was when I was in Holland. And he he gave this teaching which ended up being a cassette, you know, back in the days when we had cassettes. And it was called passion and detachment. Mhm. I was actually reflecting today it was an early expression of you know, you could say what evolved later into being and becoming. Um and you know, obviously I I'd been very uh schooled in the more Buddhist um orientation of of detachment and non-attachment. Uh meditative, you know, somewhat in inward turning uh contemplative process. And and in this talk he was just talking about passion, you know. And this was one of the things that attracted me to Andrew right from the beginning and that came roaring out of his that book, Masters Myself, is this utter abandon and passion. Yeah. And he was saying in this teaching that you could only discover true detachment through taking enormous risks, which which completely blew my mind. I mean, even now I can't really it doesn't compute. The mind can't uh grasp that, you know. Yeah. But it it completely blew blew apart whatever frames of reference uh I was operating within in terms of spirituality. Mhm. And um I went to see him for a personal interview after that teaching and uh I remember he said to me he's he said to me um yeah, there's so you know, there's so much happening for you cuz I'd been writing writing to him, but he said, "Why are you so quiet? Why aren't you connecting with my people here?" You know, cuz I was keeping myself Yeah, yeah, yeah. separate. And he just pointed right at me and he said he said you know, this passion will only destroy you if you allow it, you know, if you allow it to to take you over. And um and I came out of there remember walking to a a group of people, group of his students that were in a circle by the canal. And and I remember I just connected with everybody and it was kind of the beginning of me coming out of that uh sort of more sense of still holding on to my own sort of uh separateness to whatever degree and to this ecstatic communion with everybody was that was there. Yeah. And from that moment it became clear like, yeah, that was that was what I wanted and there was no question that I was going to join the community. Oh, that's beautiful. And what I hear from what you are saying is something that came out in other conversations. This sense of that when when you allow it to happen, the sense of intersubjectivity in between the Sangha members was there from the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It was there. It was there right from the beginning and um and also when I first went to uh to California, so this was a time when they'd just Andrew had just started to want to introduce some more some structure into the experiment there because I think there were a number of people who kind of jumped in the deep end and then, you know, found out that they it was too much for them. So it was the beginning of what was called the novice program at the time. And um those of us that were part of that, we all had to shave our heads, so I looked a bit like you you you're looking right now. Um we were all celibate. It was a very full-on uh commitment. Yeah. And um but I remember that all happened very rapidly. And there we were quite a quite a a diverse spectrum of men and women who who'd all leaped into this. Yeah. And um and different quite a spectrum of ages as well. Um and but there was just this seamless and beautiful intimacy and communion between us all right from the beginning. Yeah. And um yeah, and indeed with with everyone. And so that was definitely just just a characteristic uh of what was happening around Andrew. This this sense of like he always wanted to call it. He always liked to call it the revolution. Yeah. didn't like really like the word community. But it was it was always this sense of uh that we were being consumed by by a by a spiritual fire. And that was the one phrase I often remember so much was so-and-so is on fire, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Have they Have they caught fire yet? Then there was some there was something about this um transmission. And then that reminds me also uh when I discovered masters myself in the Buddhist library, the very next day, the first edition of the What Is Enlightenment yeah, journal as it was at the time and then it evolved into the magazine also arrived in the library. And and uh it was um right on the front cover of it, it was a dialogue about this distinction that Andrew was beginning just beginning to make between personal and impersonal enlightenment. And he And he said the the questioner asked, "What's the difference between them?" And he said, "It's the difference between a burning match and a raging forest fire." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, that captures exactly the spirit of all that. And how aware when you look back, how aware was everybody what what that meant or or what what you were uh experiencing together? Was this something that was being uh discussed or having conversation about or is it more in hindsight that you realize it was all there right from the beginning? That's a good question. I think it was somehow both. Mhm. Um I think there was a we Yeah, we knew that there was some something extraordinary was happening in and between us of great significance. And even in those early days, there was a clear sense and recognition that this had significance way beyond our own personal liberation. Yeah. At the same time, you know, looking back with all we know now that unfolded since, I think we were just Yeah, and on another level we had no idea what the implications were and what the implications would be Yeah. for us, you know, in terms of um you know, where that was going to take us and the depth of uh the ordeal and the surrender that was that was going to be required. Yeah, that's that's what I'm kind of pointing to what I would like to go into now is because what what there is one thing in these conversations that I'm having that is surprising to me in all in all the conversations I have with the the old-time students as you are and with Mary and Steve, this realization that the the intersubjective was there from the beginning. And then I wonder or I also know that there was something happening in 2001. Uh the this big breakthrough, this big intersubjective breakthrough. So what I'm very curious about is, can you still kind of recall or or explain what was it what what Andrew was pushing for there? Because obviously some people already experienced the intersubjective the the impersonal intersubjective before that. But then leading up to to the that famous day, uh 30th July 2001, Yeah. he was pushing for something very specific. So I'm curious to hear it from you how this all happened and what happened and what was different after. Wow. Okay. Um So that's that's fasting fast forwarding to quite a few years. Um So how best best to speak of this? I think um So all of those years, so so I was in I was in Marin, California for a couple years, then I ended up going back to going to London. I was actually in the London community for three and then I ended up going to Foxhollow. Uh in '97, I think, and I ended up staying there. I think all the men from London went on a trip. That's right. And then I I stayed there. So it's a long period uh leading up to 2001, obviously. So there's a lot I could say, you know, so much to explore, but just to stay with the with the thread of your um the inquiry. You know, as thing as far as we concerned we were concerned for now I'll just of course speak for myself. What we were experiencing through those years when it when when we were at our best and you know, when when it was really happening, particularly with the men, because as you know, we we met men together and the women met as women, it was extraordinary. And so the intersubjective dimension of this um profound communion and the the depth and subtlety of inquiry that we would engage in and of course this is another of Andrew's greatest strengths as he taught us how to inquire very deeply into the human experience. Um You know, it it was profound uh and and ecstatic and and um and there was a great process of purification and transformation that we were all um involved in. Um And I think I think many of us, including myself, felt like we're doing it. Mhm. You know, I mean, I was somebody who I loved the teachings. I I um I worked in editorial and you know, I'd be working with transcribed teachings and we compiling them into different products and books and all that. So I I was living and breathing Andrew's teachings. And um and you know, I think many of us felt like, you know, we were we were um embodying and expressing this what at that time was called the the impersonal enlightenment um potentials and perspective. Um But I But clearly Andrew always felt that there was way more to go. Yeah. So so to to to zoom into that time, um and I'm I'm going to have to make some generalizations, but um you know, I think we were all doing we were doing relatively well. And I'm talking specifically more more about the men here. It was a bit of a different story with the women. Um Well, extraordinarily well, I think um in terms of our our our our own lived experience. Um But Andrew felt that um yeah, it was still relative, you know. And and what he was shooting for was was something that in that that involved all of us. And you know, a complete kind of surrender and um taking full responsibility. You know, he would often talk about having an absolute relationship to life. Yeah. And you know, so I remember when this before the run-up to the July 30th time, of course, as I'm sure you know, was was was an incredible incredibly intense ordeal. I mean, you know, I was I was in the car yesterday playing a song from a favorite band of mine and it's called If You Want to Go to Heaven, You've Got to Raise a Little Hell. Oh. And man, did did Andrew raise some hell. I mean, I remember us So one day Andrew took us all out to a bar, you know, we just got the message we're going out with Andrew and we went in a convoy of cars, you know, in the evening. And he took us to a bar and we were we were all sort of all like, "What's going on?" you know. And we sat around this big table. He had a He had a We all were all served with a beer. You know, some of us hadn't hadn't drank alcohol for years, you know, it went straight to our And he said, "Drink. Drink." And what he basically said he he said, "The revolution hasn't happened yet." And uh that was quite a moment. Mhm. Because uh if you would spoken to any of us, "Is the revolution happening?" we'd be like, "Oh, yeah, definitely. Mhm. Is there further to go? Yeah, but it's happening." And he said, "The revolution isn't happening yet. Hasn't happened yet." And um he then spoke a little bit and he basically said this is my sort of summary. He said, "All of you are living relatively extraordinary spiritual lives you know, compared to most other spiritual communities or you know, endeavors, you are living extraordinary lives, but you're not living um the to the fullness of your your potential and you're not living uh you're not fully living what you what you've been given and what you know and what you've understood. And then he spoke to a few of us. He And he one of them was me. And he said he said, "Well, there's Pete there, for example, you know, he he knows the teachings better than most of you. You know, but would you know it from the way he lives his life?" Mhm. And he was just pointing at the you know, the love the the degree of my still my selfishness and Mhm. And then he went around a few other people. And um and he basically said he said um right at the end, he said, "So I'm So I'm going to have to force it to happen." Cuz he was basically saying we weren't we weren't going to do it from our own um Yeah. our own uh um will, you could say. Yeah. And I'll never forget that moment. It was like he threw down the gauntlet on the table. And and then we all drove back to Fox Hollow and we were I never forget being in the cars and it was like you could have heard a pin drop, you know, we everyone was like It was a big like shh. Oh my god, what's going to happen? Yeah. And um so then from then on he proceeded to put tremendous pressure over a period of time uh to make to catalyze what he uh intuited um was possible. And as we all know that time was is in is incredibly controversial. Um the way I see it is um you know, Andrew was pushing for a breakthrough on a collective level. Mhm. And he often said even many times before that he would say to us, you know, I'm not interested in in your individual awakening. You know, I'm only interested in this potential collective level. And even then, you know, sometimes we you know, we would all gulp, you know, be like we we felt the challenge of that, but n- none of us ran out of the room, you know, or you know, because we all knew there was something deeper and and more profound than than our own individual uh awakening. So, that was already um in us and in the mix. So, I think for that reason you know, we we we we hung in there um for this uh for this challenge. The way I the way I see it is that um maybe I can best illustrate it with my hands here. So, what I'm illustrating here is the vertical dimension. Right. The vertical dimension of of that divine divine demand. And then the base of the triangle being the the s- the more horizontal dimension of inclusion. Yeah. And and I basically feel that what happened during this time was like this. Yeah. He he he was he was pushing for us to go way beyond all of our patterning and limitations and our resistance. And it wasn't enough if if if some of us were um evidencing that. It was like it had to be everyone. Yeah. And um so as a result of that, you know, um you know, that was a very you know, very intense time. Some people left um never to come back. Some people left like I did actually and and ended up coming back and I'll say a bit more about that in a minute. But I I feel like um what he did is he he forged us into where you could say a like a rocket ship. Yeah. Um and um created the conditions for a breakthrough to occur. And granted, it's true, you know, he he he there were there was what we could call collateral damage. There were people who who didn't make it, couldn't make it. There's a lot of controversy about a lot of the things he did at that time. Um but I was very close to him actually through some of that. Mhm. Um you know, he he had he was also very creative. The amount of times he was just relentless and and in in his pressure, but he also he was very wild and creative. He tried a lot of different things to make something to catalyze breakthroughs on collective levels. So, one of the things he had he did with me is I became his cartoonist. Mhm. I draw cartoons and he would have me he would have me draw cartoons of people, you know, illustrating their egoic uh resistance or whatever was going on. Yeah. And and this all started quite gradually and then it became all consuming, you know, he'd pull me out of work and say, "Look, I need you to draw the cartoon of this and and this all this So, he told you what to draw or Yeah, well, he would tell me he would tell me what what he wanted it to convey. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then I would I would just do it. Yeah. Yeah. And um so there also there was there was this humor, of course, wild humor at times, but also I saw Andrew's desperation, you know. Mhm. And and this was also part of I I was doing this in with the crisis that was occurring with the men at that time, but earlier on it had also occurred with with the women. Yeah. And um I saw a side of Andrew that I think a lot of people didn't see necessarily or maybe people who weren't who weren't so close to him. That he was just trying things, you know, and he was desperate. He was the times he was helpless, you know, and he would say to me he would say he s- he would say, "Look, I I don't know what to do about Well, this is what's happening. What What do you think?" You know, and of course I'll be like, "Well, I I don't know, Andrew." But he was just trying um you know, everything he could to catalyze um these deeper breakthroughs. And um so, I think some of it was very creative. I think some of it was just you know, he pushed too hard or people couldn't meet, you know, the demand he was making. But um just to focus more on on my own trajectory with it at a certain point I just felt overwhelmed by the intensity and the pressure. I I I like all of us came up against huge huge resistance. Mhm. And looking back, I I believe that Andrew, because of what he was pushing for I feel that we we were we were invoking, if you like, forces in the human condition that way went way beyond ourselves individually. Mhm. I know that myself and I know I could see it happen with all my brothers. We We s- like we became crippled by pride, fear, victimization. Um I remember once yeah, just cuz we had prostration practice, you know, it's one of the and I remember standing there once and I and I just could not do it. You know, there was just refusal. And and it it just seemed like almost being um um taken over by some you could say devilish force, you know. Yeah. So, the way I understand it now is because Andrew was pushing for some and a breakthrough on a on this profoundly collective level and he was pushing for something that had never happened before I believe Yeah. in human history. Um that it activated forces of, you know, if you want to call it darkness or collective ego um that went way beyond our own sort of personal conditioning. Mhm. And this was a part of why it became such an intense and protracted battle and ordeal. Um yeah, and in the in the midst of that I I just basically I broke at a certain point. Um I remember vividly when it happened. It was He had one of the women one of the rather attractive women he had her dressed up as a kind of quite sexy waitress and she came into my office and with a with a tray and a glass of whiskey on the tray. And said, "This is from Andrew. This is for you." You know. Again, very you know, very creative. Um one of those things that could have gone either way, but for me at that time I was like I can't I can't do this, you know. It was just a way like many ways he was he was trying to uh get get us to break out of our um our resistance, our victimization. Mhm. So, I actually left and I I won't tell the whole story of that, but um I was I was away for a few months. And then I went through quite a crisis and just had to face what I was that I was running away. And and basically ended up coming back. Mhm. Back to Andrew. So, just expressed to him what what I was facing. He just wrote me a very short message saying, "Dear Pete, come home. Love, Andrew." Yeah. And I came back and I was picked up at the bus by one of the women. And she told me she said, "It's very It's very good that you're back at this time. This is a very important time. You're going to be joining most of the men on retreat." Oh, yeah. That was that time, yeah. So, so at that time about 2/3 of the men Andrew had put on retreat just just a few days before I arrived. And so, I didn't s- you know, I didn't speak to anyone. So, imagine that. I've been I've been out for about 4 months, you know, and just came into this retreat with all of my brothers. And what I remember most vividly about it was the first day or two I I literally felt I was burning. It was like my I've never experienced anything like it Mhm. before or since. It was like there was this such intensity in the room. It was literally burning. And um we did we were doing uh God knows how many hours of meditation chanting uh prostration practice. And um that retreat ended up going on for 2 months. Yeah. And yeah, it was a it was an it was the most extraordinary um cauldron, you know, crucible of of uh of practice and uh purification and you know, all of us had been through hell. And I think all of all of us were going through this process of just shedding everything that we've been through and confronting all of our our resistance, our pride, our arrogance, our weakness. You know, and it was just burning up Yeah. in this um field of practice. And then towards the end of those two months all we heard all we heard was that we were going to have a meeting with the group of men that weren't on retreat. And this was a smaller group. So, what what it what it happened is is between that smaller group they had begun to catalyze something between them that up until that point was unprecedented. And they were really holding each other to an absolute um context and standard. Yeah. So, we began those of us that were on the retreat we began to meet with them. Mhm. And it was extraordinary. It was extraordinary cuz these those men it wasn't that many of them but they were clearly transformed. And and um and obviously we were going through our own transformation. So, basically it what happened in a in a few meetings is that there was probably maybe two or three or four of them was that gradually we started to meet them and we started to come together in this um profound uh uh freedom and recognition. But what was I think what was unprecedented unprecedented about it was the the subtlety to which we we were able to see any expression of of ego in each other and that would be pointed out. Yeah. You know, whether it was some you know, holding back, whether it was some degree of overconfidence or whatever expression it was taking. And it would just be pointing out but but it was just dissolved in that moment. And gradually over time more and more men were releasing themselves from whatever their fear and resistance was and just jumping into this fire. And so, there were a few meetings that led up to July 30th. Um but what happened on July 30th was when the last man let go completely. Oh, yeah. And um I thought I knew you would want to talk about this. So, I thought I'd like to read something from from my a book I wrote cuz I actually wrote about it. Yes. So, this is this is how I describe what happened. So, as the last man who was still holding on to a vestige of doubt let go in exten- in an ecstatic expression of release the circle exploded into a ring of spiritual fire. As we found ourselves consumed and transported beyond all knowing into the uncontainable mystery of a collective enlightened consciousness. All distinctions between the one and the many rapidly dissolved in a searing conflagration of unity. Every individual mysteriously more fully themselves than ever before melted into a glowing field of luminous energy. There was only one heart, one mind, and one voice that hungered to speak. But what was so new and utterly awe-inspiring was the unmistakable presence of a greater and higher intelligence that was emerging in the context of a seamless blend of autonomy and communion. This revelation was far more than a spiritual experience. It was the palpable sensation of becoming a conscious part of an even more infinitely conscious whole. It was as if we had somehow forged ourselves into a great unified receiver that was now able to pick up a signal that had always been there but had hitherto been beyond our reach. A new matrix of awakened consciousness, literally a new being unchackled from any vestige of separation was surging into manifestation through us and as us. As each man abandoned himself without reservation and gave voice to this deepest heartfelt intuitive recognition of what was being revealed the ring of fire vibr- vibrated with a luminous insistent call that seemed to erupt from the depths of our souls and souls and from the infinite vastness of the overarching cosmos simultaneously. Anyway, it goes on but it was extraordinary and and and um the image that comes to my mind when I remember it was like if you imagine a dam the big dam that's holding back Yeah. and then there's a hole in the dam and it was just like it was so explosive. Yeah. And as I described it as a ring of fire it was literally once the last man let go completely cuz that's what it needed you see. And this This is when we understood it was only when every single man was completely given over that this Yeah. fire as I described it I And um and so get getting back to your early question while there had been, you know, again relatively extraordinary um emergence, you know, in what we could call intersubjective um awakening before that. Mhm. This was of a completely different order. Yeah. And one characteristic of of it was as I described there it was it was we we were all enlightened. You know, Yeah, yeah. there was no, you know, that we would be looking at each other. We knew each other inside out and it was like we were all utterly free. Yeah. There was this complete fullness of our individual expression but at the same time there was this tacit recognition that there would that who we were or what was emerging through us were was was this new with this new being it was it was there was the sense of something profoundly um yeah, just of cosmic proportions you could say that was being released. And um yeah, it it was absolutely extraordinary and and it was almost like you could see I remember looking across the the circle and it was almost like you could see um energy, you know, spiraling out of the crown of people's heads. There was there was there was a lot of energetic um release and phenomena. And and and there were many people in in this group that had the same experience. I I remember I saw a lot of letters that Andrew showed me that that were written to him after that and it it was just one single witnessing of the same thing that that was mind-blowing. That was amazing. And then the amazing thing was the next I would let me tell you what happened at the end cuz this is also very significant. So, at the end of the meeting, you know, the last man spoke and it what I felt I remember it vividly it was like then we all fell into this profound ringing silence. And it was like this this greater being that the higher we that that or as in in Aurobindo called it the supermind. Whatever whatever that phenomenon was it was like it spiraled up and out of the room. That was my sense. It was just like and then we were just left just in complete kind of shock and awe. No. And we were we could not speak. Mhm. And um this is the amazing thing about what happened at the end. So, nobody said anything from what I remember but all of us got up and we spontaneously walked down to Andrew's house. And this was in the middle of the night cuz the the meeting went on for several hours. Yeah. It must the middle of the night must have been 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and we all prostrated in front of his house. Mhm. Wow. It's pretty it brings tears just to remember. And I remember lying there I remember lying there on my nose in the gravel and I was like thank you Andrew. Thank you I would and I was so grateful that I'd found the the strength and the courage to come back. Come back, yeah, sure. This is the thing. I know there's a lot of controversy about all of this in this time. But I totally understand that a lot of people who left during that time during that intensity and for and they never made it back. Yeah, yeah. They never experienced the the the victory. It be so for the victory, yeah, exactly. on the other side of that tremendous ordeal. Mhm. And and um and I remember it was it was like in that moment there was a tacit recognition of like oh oh, this is why Andrew had to push so hard. This is what he was pushing for. And there was no way we could have It's amazing how he he he foresaw this, you know, how he had this vision of what is possible. Yeah, and then the next day I think it was the next night um we actually met with him. Mhm. And we were describing what had occurred. And it was it was very very beautiful cuz Andrew was so um relieved so utterly ecstatic and but relieved and vulnerable and I remember how he said to us he said he said he said, "Guys, you have to you have no idea what it's been like for me. You know, I've been wondering if I'm crazy all these years, and especially in the recent times. Uh is was what I felt was intuitive intuitively possible? Was it even real, you know? And I know that during that that intensity of that ordeal, he you know, he was he didn't feel completely helpless. He was asking himself, he was he was like, "Am I putting these people into a brick wall? Is this really possible?" Yeah. So, it was like a complete confirmation of that intuition that he had, you know, just before, you know, when in the early days when he recognized there was something happening between people that was more significant than what was happening between him and them individually. So, that that intuition and insight that occurred before I got involved defined his work and trajectory as a as a teacher and and so this was hit the it was this cosmic confirmation that it was it was real and it was true. And I think for us I mean, one thing we many of us gave voice to is a chat intuitive sense that this had never occurred before. Mhm. And I know that's a very again controversial and radical thing to say. And I still feel that way about it. It's not it's not it's not a belief. But I feel that that was a very profoundly significant event in in human history. And um you know, and then there's everything that that happened after that, you know, we we weren't able to sustain it, but something was born. Yeah. It's like there was a there was a hole in the universe, if you like. Uh there was something um that came into being as a potential between us, and then it would Yeah. Um But but I totally agree with you. I I also believe that something was was uh broken through at that time that is available now. Mhm. And I had many experiences over the last years uh where I felt like we we were able to access the same because of this breakthrough that happened then. It's almost like that it it had to be carved once. I'm not saying it's it's simple or easy now. I'm not saying that at all. It it's still it's still uh it takes a lot from people who want to do it. But it's obvious that it's uh easier accessible as it was the first time. Yeah. And I'm sure you had the same experience with your community, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and I and I remember in um so, there was a number of meetings I probably carried on for maybe a couple of months after July 30th, just as it continued to be very volcanic and powerful. And then um the intensity that I think there was something about the birth, you see. There was something about the energetic dimension of the birth that this had incredible power and intensity, and that that gradually began to die down, and then different ones of us, you know, we're again we're confronted with our own passioning and resistance. I mean, I ended up going through a whole other profound crisis after that, which actually became the most defining crisis I went through in my journey with Mhm. It was largely because I had to confront everything in me that that uh didn't want anything to do with that. Mhm. And because it yeah, it just demanded everything. I think, yeah. And um so, I went through it another ordeal after that as many and as many people did at different times. Um but yeah, and and I I But I I also think from what what Andrew shared and also what what I discussed with Andrew, that the expectation, what was possible with this breakthrough, was probably in the end too high. Yeah. It because it it looked so promising. It it felt like and it does feel like even even if we experience it now, it feels like everything is possible and and nothing is in the way and and that this group of people surrendered to the new being can yeah, can change the world literally. And it turned out that it was not that simple, no? That it was much more difficult to actually keep it as a as a cultural as a cultural standard. Yeah. It kind of remained and I I I would say even for the groups that still are doing the intersubjective non-duality work in different places in the world and and we did it in the last 10 years with Andrew. It it still stays or is a practice that one can practice and you can experience higher states, but it's far from being cultivated as a cultural Yeah. cultural How do you say that? Artifact or a cultural Yeah. tool or or Or maybe the the language of of integral in a Ken Wilber states and stages. And um it's interesting cuz as as I said in what I what I read, it was far more than a spiritual experience. Yeah. It wasn't just a higher state. I mean, of course it was that and there was profound energetic dimension to it. Um but it was like it was as if in that meeting we all kind of stepped onto into a new stage, you know, we we we um we felt and recognized and what it was revealed to us what that potential would be if all about all the dimensions of our being could be up leveled. Yeah. To that revelation that was drenching us. And and I think that's why that that meeting was so profound and significant cuz it wasn't just a higher state that we left that then faded. There was knowledge. That's right. There was there was um on at that point unprecedented unprecedented and groundbreaking knowledge and recognition understanding that occurred. But but my understanding of it now and looking back and having learned, you know, so much more over the years is that um yeah, going back to my this image I was using to help illustrate this. You know, Andrew's as as we know, Andrew's teaching and approach was very binary. It was very black and white. And this was both a tremendous strength of his teaching and and it also had its its downsides and weaknesses. And and it's so complex. There's no way to sort of resolve it all. But what I mean by that is I feel that um he um you know, he that black and white this created a confrontation. And it for these kind of breakthroughs that that confrontation created the an evolutionary tension that was somehow necessary necessary for those of us that could hold it Yeah. to propel us, you know, into into orbit, so to speak. Like the like the metaphor of a rocket taking off, you know, how much it takes to actually Yeah, yeah, yeah. To actually get off. Yeah. All of that like So, I feel that that was you know, that that was the strength in in the you know, his approach was able to catalyze that, but at the same time it it didn't account for and his teaching and approach wasn't really able to address some what we could call the slower moving processes Yeah. that cannot be forced. psyche and the human They cannot be forced. They cannot be they can you know, this this dimensions that are that are only can be uh transformed, let's say, through a process of grace. Yeah. And and surrender. But not a surrender that that's um you know, as a result of relentless pressure. And um so, I feel like, you know, he he created the conditions for us to make these incredible breakthroughs. But then inevitably over time it would we would when we go back to our lives, so to speak, and uh it would fall down. Yeah. And I also think that part of that had to do with in in the meetings you know, this was always pretty much always like this, and particularly leading up to July 30th. The the the um the the purpose of the meetings was not to speak about any of the the personal challenges we were going through. It to the best of our capacity, but to make just be available for what wanted and could happen between us as a collective. But I think and and as as you know, there was a lot of languaging of going beyond the personal. And you know, this emphasis on the impersonal dimensions, but I think what got lost in that was a lot of things that we were all dealing with. You know, our relationship to money or sexuality or different different aspects of what we were struggling with in our own lives. Um after a certain point I think Andrew expected that you should just be able to live live the the five tenants, you know, take take yourself on so to speak and then be available for these higher collective potentials. Um But I but I think obviously it wasn't that simple. So No, it didn't happen. So um And I do think that this is one of the things that Andrew had a totally different view on in the last 10 years of of his teaching and that he was much much much less binary in how he taught. But that also meant that there was much less breaks of energy or or radical radical spirit energy that was evoked. Yeah. And I I'm I'm very aware of that and I think people still benefited a lot from his teaching but what you are describing was was less he because he was very aware that that what happened with all the pressure that it wasn't stabilized. But then and he did it very differently in the last 10 years. But it would still have to be proven that that that new approach would actually lead to sustained uh intersubjective communion among between people. I I would almost say we we probably had similar problems not coming from the pressure but from the non-pressure that that uh people couldn't couldn't really hold it like the the high standard Andrew was still pointing to. Yeah. And for me this is one of the big questions because I I'm I'm totally in contact with his vision. But I have no idea how how it can be actualized actually between people. And what what what I agree with you it takes much more time than than probably it probably takes generations or lifetimes. Yeah, yeah. I mean I was reflecting on it today you know, that Andrew was very impatient. Yeah. And um but in a you know, also in a good way, you know, and part of that you know, even from the beginning as I was saying that sense of that we were on fire. Um there was something burning, you know. Yeah. And and um it's just extraordinary. I think Andrew just had he had this intuition of some possibility even though he I mean and that's a mystery in and of itself, you know, why he had that. It's also interesting that you know, he he wasn't with us. It he he wasn't actually a part of it with us in quite you know, um and yet he had uh he had this intuition of what was possible through you know, these uh higher st- higher state stage collective group dynamics. So So he you know, and obviously he um as time went on I mean as a teacher I think and I think this evolved over the years it it it this was the only aspect that had any meaning for him, you know. And and as as I said earlier he often used to say look and in the '90s leading up to this time, I'm not interested in your individual evolution and awakening. And um you know, one can say well that was something that was lacking, you know, looking back now was enough room to grow individually and that maybe certain people needed certain certain challenges or Yeah, and the stable I I think today a stable awakening is the starting able to come together with other stably awakened people. Whatever stable awakening means we can we could discuss that but we have a sense what the what a stable awakening could look like and then you can come together with people. And if it's if it's just a state that is induced because yeah, kind of the conditions are right, it it's it's not going to stick. No. No. So I think I think it's that's both the the weakness and the strength of Andrew's approach. I don't I don't think it this is my belief based on all my experience. I don't think it would have occurred uh unless Andrew had been willing to take enormous risks and pushes as in intensity as he did. That's not to say you know, there's justification for everything that occurred Yeah, yeah. negative side. But as just he knows he often used to say I believe evolution is a messy business. And if you want if you're committed to making profound breakthroughs it's one thing to be committed to that process individually but to do that together Yeah. it's it's going to be it's going to be a messy process and and there's going to be all kinds of forces that are activated. And um Yeah. And then I you know, and I I I I know how to what a big challenge it is and you know, what Andrew faced, you know, how how do you take a collective guide a collective in a transformational process. Um where you're being as inclusive as possible, you know, you want to take as many along for the ride as you are up but at the same time if you if you become too inclusive then you lose that verticality. Rocket ship the rocket ship's not going to take off. So some people aren't going to make it. Some people it doesn't mean that they're um there's something wrong with them or that they they don't have an authentic spiritual process but but for whatever reason um they they weren't able to get on the ship. process you need everybody fully fully in and fully be able to do it. Otherwise it just doesn't work. I mean yeah, I've seen groups where one one single person is preventing everybody else from moving forward. That's just how the spiritual physics works here. Yeah. And then it's time to ask that question of uh if we want to call it a higher stage versus a higher state, you know, when it when that um awakening would become stabilized as you you put it. Um there's so many dimensions to that. And of course all all the all the karmas of every individual and so much complexity. And it's inevitably going to be messy. It's have mistakes are inevitably going to be made. Um and my sense is in in terms of what we all sort of glimpse doesn't feel like the right word cuz it was far more than that, you know, that revelation that we found ourselves immersed in, you know, we being overtaken by that that potential that one awakened self that was looking through all our eyes to actually live there. Yeah. Be that I mean that's there's so there's there's such a an immense process of purification and transformation that would that would need to address all all dimensions of life. Yeah, yeah. And and um you know, who knows maybe it was a in in terms of its fullness maybe it's a potential that's quite still quite far ahead of us. Yeah. I I don't know. there and that's good to know. Peter, I would like to cover one one other topic with you because we are quite far into our conversation already and I don't want to go too long but I would like to cover one thing because that's very special in your biography with Andrew. And that's uh the point where you later I think in 2004 actually left the community and started to do your own thing. And but you were not expelled by Andrew. Why why I bring this up is because I find it very interesting that this was an option for you and if you can talk a little bit about this whole process how it came about and and uh how the interaction with Andrew then then was when you when you kind of took the the teaching forward and did your own thing independent of Andrew not as part of EnlightenNext. Yeah. Which I think is very uh yeah, it's a a special case in a way, you know. Yeah, um yeah, it is it is interesting and it was actually 2005. Yeah. So I'd gotten to a point so by So you have 2001 when this breakthrough occurred collectively. And then as I said I went through another crisis um about a year after that. And um again quite an ordeal came through the other side. And when I came through back through the other side I was changed. Something in me had shifted profoundly. So based to put it simply what I was always up against was I had the recognition, you know, I was one of the people that talked the talk and even transmit the teachings to a degree. Um I had you know, Andrew always said I had enormous potential. Mhm. Um but uh but there was this uh selfishness in me and and um yeah, basically let's just say that, you know, and an unwillingness to fully and completely surrender. And and basically that happened. Yeah. And so that that would have been in 2003. So for the last 2 years I was a part of EnlightenNext. I I felt like I was completely available. And um yeah, I wasn't the you know, there wasn't this uh uh intense um holding back holding back anymore. And and um basically I just felt like in a sense that wasn't being fully recognized perhaps by Andrew. I mean Andrew been through so much with me. But also I felt in terms of I was always frustrated creatively, you know, I wanted to be part of working on the magazine for example and there were practical issues why it was that wasn't possible. I was an illegal alien living there in Fox Hollow, you know. Um and basically I just got to a point where I just felt like it was partly to do with that and the the rigidity of the structure I began to feel. I just felt like it's it's not happening here. Mhm. And it all came to a head when uh Andrew put me on um a project to do with creating a new website. Which I didn't really feel was my forte, you know, it wasn't really what I was good at. I was more good at editorial and the words. But I you know, I gave myself to it completely. But it was I was put in a completely unreasonable situation of I was still I was still at that point working um to support myself and there was just not enough resources and basically long story short uh it ended up not I ended up failing, let's say, you know, at a certain point. He took took me off that project. I couldn't make it happen. And it was like this sensation and that often happened around Andrew. And I I think this is a good metaphor it metaphor for it is you know the game snakes and ladders. Do you know this game snakes and ladders and Yeah, yeah. It's like that being with Andrew. You get to a ladder, you know, so you're being a meeting and you know, something will come out. Go up the ladder and then you would be you would be so cool promoted to now you can have a greater responsibility in some department, you know, and you're doing great kind of thing. And it was my sensation after all these years and and and knowing that I I was in a I was in a heart surrendered place. And there I was doing really well in the board game, you know, and then and then I I hit a snake right at the end and then it took kind of took me all the way back down and you're kind of in this position of sort of being in the doghouse again. But it it wasn't to do with me being in a an ego resistive place. It was just like I hadn't come through in the project. So basically all of this conspired to to bring me to a point where I just felt like um it wasn't happening. Uh but it wasn't as gracious as it was in the sense of Andrew giving me permission at that point. Um you know, I basically decided I just had to leave. The last dialogue I had with Andrew was very significant. He basically said to me, you know everything. You've you've been to heaven and you in hell, you know, agony and ecstasy. Um I just need to know if you're going to be of use to me. Mhm. Basically what he was saying to me at that point is, you know, you're either you're with me and you're going to give your life to what I'm doing or not. And I always wish look back and wish I'd had the courage to say what come back to him and say, well Andrew, I don't think I am going to be of use to you. So that maybe he could have he might have actually blessed my exit. But but at that point there was still a lot of fear in me of like the reprisals and what might happen if I actually said I wanted to leave. So I just left. And um but I stayed in touch with Andrew. And uh you know, I I always expressed my gratitude to him. And about 2 years later, so I ended up getting together with Cynthia who you know, who was also part of the EnlightenNext community although she was never a formal student. Mhm. And um we got together um and and out of our time together this vision began to emerge. We didn't know what we wanted to create but it was basically a vision to to buy some land, you know, and start some kind of a project dedicated to what what the mission statement ended up being was living the truth of unity in harmony with the ecological ecological web of life. Mhm. So we bought some an abandoned farm in here in Portugal and put up a blog with that mission statement and people started to come and that's how it all started. I had no idea about being a spiritual teacher or anything like that. Yeah. Basically what happened after a few years we we would just had meditation as a part of our context and practice. Uh and people are requested me to um they wanted to know more about the spiritual context and vision and gradually I was invited to teach and at a certain point I started to offer meditation retreats. So when this started to happen um it was obviously broadly what I was sharing was what my own expression of what I'd learned over all those years with Andrew. So it was very important for me to to have his blessing. Mhm. Uh I said to him, look Andrew, this is starting to happen. I'm getting requests. I even sent him recordings Mhm. of what I was doing. And he was very very positive. Mhm. Now if he had said to me Nadi, this is this is this is completely off, you know, there's not you're not in integrity. Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't have done it. Mhm. But I think I I knew in myself that there was something pure that was happening. So um it meant an awful tremendous amount to me that he uh supported me in that. And then uh we kept in touch. And I think it was a time then it was also cuz Craig Hamilton shortly left after I left and he started his whole thing online. And I think it was a time when Andrew was was realizing that uh for some of us the the context of of what EnlightenNext didn't allow us to fully flower. Yeah. Yeah. You know, of whatever gifts we had to give. So I think I was one of the first because I still sustained a relationship with him where he he was able to actually support me. And um and that was that was a very, you know, very beautiful thing. We you know, we would occasionally stay stay in contact. And uh it came more full circle uh around so I left 2005. So around 2000 10, 11, 12 I actually me and some of my Cynthia and I and some of we bought some of our students at the time Tuscany retreat. Mhm. And there were two Tuscany retreats that I went to and that was like a really full on reconnection Mhm. with Andrew and the community who those people that were there at the time. Yeah. And I was even part of he even had me lead uh discussion groups. Yeah, yeah. Leading groups along the way. Yeah. And that was that was just amazing that he you know, he met me where I was and and invited me in. And um and so for those last few years before the before the community um crashed and dissolved, you know, I was actually I was in a whole on with some of the committed student guys. I I was kind of part of the of EnlightenNext. But Andrew, I remember we in Tuscany he invited me and he I made very clear to him. I said, Andrew, look, I'm completely committed. I'm I'm all in with what I'm doing, you know, I can't give any of my time and energy to EnlightenNext. And he said, no problem. I just I just want to offer you the opportunity to be reconnected as a means of supporting what you're doing. Yeah. Cool. And that was that was beautiful. Yeah. Very beautiful. I was just thinking as you tell all these stories can you say a few words about what what you think today about in general the student-teacher relationship or guru-disciple relationship? Is that still something that that is important moving forward for for humanity, people that want to grow spiritually? What is your view today of of a teacher-student relationship? My view is that it's absolutely important. And um I say except in very very rare cases. Mhm. You maybe someone like Ramana Maharshi, but you know, he said Arunachala was his guru. Yeah, yeah. I think it's an indispensable. Um there is just no way, you know, I I can speak for myself, you know, as I said I would in if I look back ever since my teenage years I've known that I was never going to live an ordinary life and I was so there was a spiritual longing and I would be overcome in sort of spontaneous meditation when I was a teenager. I didn't know what it was at the time. So I was I was totally committed, but there's no way no way I would have come anywhere near um the the understanding, recognition, revelation, and the ordeal of of uh purification that I underwent and not just with Andrew since, you know. And and uh with without um a willingness to recognize and then respond Yeah. and therefore surrender uh to someone who um it was clear could show me the way forward. So, again, it's it's a very controversial subject and but I feel one of the greatest uh gift actually Andrew's book um when Shadow Meets the Bodhisattva, one of the things I appreciated so much about that book, not only his own raw vulnerability in um sharing his own process and everything he had to face after the collapse of EnlightenNext, but how he opened up just this wider inquiry into the the perils and pitfalls and complexity of the guru disciples teacher student relationship in the post-modern West. Yeah. And I think it was it was an invaluable uh contribution to that whole exploration. And um but my own feeling is that uh of course times have changed now. And um you know, we're we're living in an even more um intensely post-modern uh potentially I with I think pathologically post-modern culture that isn't that totally anath anathema to the idea of a spiritual guru and hierarchy and the depth of surrender that's required. I mean, of course, the big question I think in a post-modern context cuz as we know, we're not we're not coming from a traditional context where that depth of surrender comes more easily. But here we are highly developed, you know, Western Western post-modern Westerners, how do you surrender to the degree that you you can uh be taken beyond yourself, you know, with and by um through it through the guru principle uh and at the same time not um this word that's often been used these days, you know, not uh deny or lose one's authentic sovereignty. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But you see, there's no there's no that's a conundrum. There is no solution to that riddle. And and I still lean on the side of like, you know, if you're if one's serious about spiritual waking, you you have to take be willing to take the the biggest risk that there is, which is to give you give yourself over and that cuz of course can only occur if there's a spontaneous spot response to to take one in that direction. It cannot be forced. But if that if that um possibility would present itself, um and of course traditionally, that's always been understood that um it's the guru principle that in almost all cases is the bridge, if you like, to us realizing our highest potential. So, I Absolutely. As you say, it's the guru principle and I think one thing that could change and still the guru principle could could be honored is that what Andrew also wrote in his book that the guru cannot be this perfected human being that knows everything and can tell you everything and is always right. I think that is not possible in a post-modern world anymore. Just not. Because it's also not realistic and it never was. In a way, no guru ever was all-knowing and and uh omniscient. But that means that it takes much more from the guru or the teacher and from the student and the disciple to make these subtle distinctions because a full surrender is a full surrender. It's In a way, that's easy. If you can fully surrender to a guru and think he knows everything and I just do what you tell me to do, that's in a way simple. But when you when you start to make distinctions, what where is the guru principle talking to you and where it's the man or the the not totally refined human expression of that guru principle, then it gets really tricky and really difficult, challenging for both, for the guru and for the Yeah, it's very interesting what you're bringing up. I think for me, you know, going back to what I shared at the beginning about how I met Andrew, Yeah. because that meeting was beyond the personal. Yeah. And and so I think for me, I know I know this whole subject of of the um the perceived perfection of the of the mythic guru archetype as Andrew wrote about it in his book, it was never quite like that for me. I I I never sort of regarded Andrew as perfect or needed to see him as being perfect. Um you know, and again, I know I know there's sort of you know, there's there was there were definitely ways that I don't know if he would ever explicitly have said that, but I know I remember there was a teaching that he gave to cast no shadow, for example. So, there was a there was a sort of unspoken presumption that Andrew had no shadow. Um which of course became problematic. But um I I just know my case and for me, I come to the guru principle, it's it's the purity of motive. Yeah. And um you know, like I'm one of the the things that happened to me. I've been written about in negative accounts that students have written as being abused by Andrew. There's things that happened to me that so many people regard as being profoundly abusive. You For example, Mhm. um but I didn't experience it that way. Yeah, yeah. It's not to say that if I hadn't come through and it's I wouldn't I probably would have been in that exactly. And it's not to say that Andrew was sometimes merciless and we could even say cruel, you know, but for me anyway, when I made a breakthrough, he was always right there. And it was freedom has no history. Yeah. And and um so so um you know, I when I reflect back, I'm like, well, 90% of the time when Andrew was putting me under immense pressure, you know, he was right on the money. You know, he knew he cared about my liberation more than I did when it really mattered. But maybe there's another 10 cent 10% of the time where he was either too strong or you know, a more nurturing, loving you know, mother force, which Andrew tended to lack, would have would have gone a lot further than just more like powerful, you know. And I think that's true, you know, he lacked a he he was a shiva, you know, he he had a very strong father force and it and he lacked a more you could say um I hate to use the word feminine, but maybe mother force, that sense of nurturing and and uh and uh that sense of knowing you are loved even in the even even when he's like, you know, beating you over the head, so to speak. There's all of those dimensions, but um But this, by the way, came out came out uh beautiful in the last 10 years. That that's the transformation he went through over the last 10 years that that he was I also he changed in that way and also the teaching changed in that way that it as we said before that it was much less black and white, but but gained profound depth because that like the the non-duality of his teaching actually felt really non-dual because it it didn't have these edges of go baby go and and being and becoming as two different things. It it became much more integrated like his his power to integrate and to to have compassion and to to transmit love has increased a lot. Yeah. And it was beautiful to see. Yeah. Yeah, I I I acknowledge that and I felt that when I when I was with him recently. Yeah. And but just to finish what I was saying about the guru principle so is that yeah, to me it's never it can never be about the the the perfection of the human being. Yeah. That that's that doesn't exist and especially if if if a guru is in a situation of really taking on people and challenging people, there's no avoiding um the complexity and and the mistakes are going to be made, but it's always like, you know, where where is what is the motive? What is the intention? Yeah. And you know, there may have been times when even in Andrew's case that intention was was off, but but I in terms of my experience, yeah, he he he he um he cared very very passionately about potential that he saw both in us individually and especially as a collective. And and and he was just willing to take enormous risks. And um and in some ways, you know, there there's he lacked sensitivity, he lacked capacity, you know, there's all kinds of dimensions and he had to go through more of a process of becoming a more rounded um you know, human being in the way you described. But but I'll always you know be grateful for the fact that he he um he didn't hold back, you know. Yeah. And he gave what he had to go give and he learned a lot, we all learned a lot. Yeah. And uh you know, one of the big lessons I feel is just the challenge to be able to hold complexity. Yeah. And bear bear the enormous complexity of the of the human condition when it's confronted with a with the possibility of of awakening. Yeah. I feel that's a good place to end, Pete. What do you think? I know we could talk for hours. Go on for hours, yeah. Yeah, happy to end with that. It feels like that's such a beautiful point probably to end for now. And uh I really appreciate the conversation with you. It it brought a lot of new and deeper aspects. As as all the conversations are kind of a puzzle that that bring shed a lot of light of what what actually was happening. Mhm. In all its complexity. So, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. It's been quite a journey also to to relive some of some of this. Yeah.