WHEN GOD SMILES

hi my name is Jessica risher I'm a senior editor with what is Enlightenment magazine and I'm happy to introduce this interview with Archbishop Desmond Tutu which took place in December 2004 at an International Conference in Bali entitled The Quest for Global healing and Archbishop tutu was was a featured guest and speaker at this conference and spoke about uh the role of forgiveness in creating a new future and he was uh throughout the whole week of the conference he was a tremendous presence right before the interview there was music on stage and he just got up and danced and everybody was dancing and he was dancing with everybody and it was one of the most extraordinary things this interview of Desmond Tutu begins partway through his response to my question what gave him the Deep conviction that evil and Injustice would never have the last word during the apartheid days of South Africa when everything around him seemed to be evidence of the contrary we we told our people we said they have the guns they have everything they but no they have already lost and I I used to say in in a number of my speeches to white people who are being nice to you were inviting you join The Winning Side uh and yeah I mean there were times when you had to hold on to this uh by the skin of your teeth but here we are here has another Vindication uh I mean n Mandela in jail 27 years and and you really think no we we we we are we are we are for the birds I mean it's all I mean they they they really were running the show you know they were running the show they they could they they actually would tell us what kind of funeral we ought to have for people they had killed you know I mean I I said to there was a time when they were saying they wanted to see the sermon that we are going to preach I said look here I am not going to my sermon is something that I am given by God I don't know what I'm going to say I wait I'm waiting for God to tell me what I've got to say and I'm not going to have you uh censor it and they they they really thought I mean that they they they were running the show and you had to tell you had to say to our people don't ultimately worry it's going to be okay did you have to go deeper and deeper into yourself in order to come to that conviction in the midst of increasing difficulties and I think it's it's a we probably all need to have a a modicum of suffering because it actually gets you to to realize just what it means to belong to the church that I mean you know the doctrine of the church came alive for us you know we were we were our General Secretary of the sou Council of churches and uh I would get a a a a bulletin from Alaska Alaska I tell you I mean now there are no God forsaken places in the world but I mean if you're in johannisburg and you Alaska and you get a bulletin from somebody you I mean you you don't know them from a bar of soap he's the pastor of a Lutheran Church uh Parish in Alaska and he says he sends you this bulletin and he says we pray for you and you look at the bulletin and there we are being prayed for by name we the staff of the South African Council of churches prayed for by name in Alaska now I mean will probably never meet the people who prayed for us the side of of of of the Jordan as it were we we were being upheld by the love and the prayers of millions around the world it it was such a actually sometimes it was almost a physical sensation um and and I mean even now 10 years after we've had freedom it isn't being just conventional going around saying to people thank you for having supported us we would not have made it without without that and so yeah I mean we we we were sustained we were sustained in some of the darkest moments um not by our own resources but by the fact that we had these sisters and brothers all over the world and and you know I I don't I don't think I mean that when when you when you when you're having a uh comfortable time uh you actually quite understand I I think I I'm not quite certain that uh Christianity flourishes properly uh where people are comfortable uh I think it's a faith it is a faith ultimately for sufferers and then you understand and then you understand you understand where mean the the scriptures really come alive I mean you you when you read say Daniel chapter is it Chapter 3 of the um fiery furnace that's a nice story you know but for people who are having a a rough time you come you preach to them and you say now look uh this Injustice and oppression is like being thrown into the fiery furnace now the god that we have you know the god that we worship is not a God who gives you good advice from a safe distance you see the king the king threw three guys into the furnace and then he comes and he says he wants to find out what's happened to them and he goes and he counts he says one two one 2 no please 1 2 3 and there's a fourth that you see our God is there in the fiery furnace and you used to say to our people our God is not over there all over God is here God knows your suffering and God is in this fiery fness with us uh I mean a lot of the scripture came alive I mean when when Moses says uh or God says to him I have heard I have seen I I know when I'm come down for us you know I mean when you preached you said don't think that I mean God is deaf I mean God God has heard has heard our cry in in this awful country uh God is not blind God has seen God is not stupid God knows what's happening to us and like it happened then this God will come down and and one day ER this God is going to lead us out of this bondage you know I I frequently say I'm I'm so glad I'm not God can you imagine can you imagine having to say been Laden is my child Saddam Hussein is my child George Bush is my child all of all of these I mean all these including me you know I mean we we we've I think we've we've removed God you know the the images that we have of God are are are odd because you see actually God this omnipotent God is weak and all all of us her her God's children and can you I mean I know a little bit as a parent I mean when you watch your child going wrong and you know you can't there's not very much you can do to stop them I mean you have tried to teach them what were the right things but now this is their life and and they they are mocking it up uh well there many moments when you cry for your child that's exactly what happens with God I mean God can you can you imagine what God must have felt like watching say the Holocaust and watching Hiroshima and nagas watching Rwanda I mean all of I mean now God watching the god watching Iraq and say you know these these these are my children these and and they killing these my children and and I can't do anything because I said to them I give you space to be you and that space enables you to make choices and and I can't stop you when you make the wrong choices and all I can do is sit here and cry and so God cries until until God sees Jessica God sees I mean all these beautiful people here who who care who may not many of them do earth shattering things but who have brought a smile on the face of this one who had HIV and and that transfiguring transfiguring something ugly a death making disease letting Something Beautiful come from it and the world may not know about it ever on this side but those little transfigurations those little acts of Love are potent they are moving our un universe so that it will become the kind of place God wants it to be and so yes you wipe the tears from God's eyes make God smile good smiles