ACTV - Andrew Cohen interviews Bruce Sanguin

[Music] hello everyone you're watching TV my name is Andrew Cohen and I'm here with Bruce sanguin hi Bruce hi Andrew Bruce is an evolutionary Christian minister serving in the Canadian Memorial United Church in Vancouver British Columbia he's also the author of Five Books including his most recent the advance of love so I'm really thrilled uh to be able to uh to talk to you Bruce I mean I I've I've heard a lot about you over the years and you and I have had some correspondence and uh you're one of the rare people in the universe that uh uh whom I know that I I agree with uh about most important and profound things already and so I'm GNA I know I'm going to have a very good uh good time with you today and I know we could probably talk about just about anything and uh and see things in a similar way and of course what we have in common is that we're both committed evolutionaries so I just thought just just to begin just for our listeners if you could really tell me you know how you became a Christian minister and then from there how you became an an evolutionary Christian minister great well thanks Andrew it's really uh wonderful to connect with you and uh yeah I feel like you're a kindred soul so my story in a nutshell is that at about the age of 21 I was essentially a jock I was playing varsity basketball and volleyball and University and the question of what's the meaning of life came to me unbidden and unexpectedly and uh I pursued that and actually I started with Transcendental Meditation Andrew the Maharishi Mahesh made its way to the University of Winnipeg and so I started meditating for three or four years and uh just as I was about to do the Advanced Training I U I ran into an a Christian evangelist and this guy told me that Jesus was the way the truth and the life and no one came to the father but through him and for whatever reasons I took it and I bit hard and so I spent a couple of years uh in a you a in a born again kind of fundamentalism and went to Seminary I had to uh deprogram from that and it took a couple years and then uh then a for for about 10 years into what might be called liberal Christianity or Progressive Christianity and then I went in a silent Retreat and um during that during the end of that Progressive Christianity phase uh I was actually getting depressed as a minister in the United Church of Canada because I felt like I was running out of things to say uh that carried with it any deep conviction and um because the liberal Christianity is was good in the postmodernist Enterprise of deconstructing truth and reality but not so good at you know okay well what's left and for me there wasn't much left I went on a silent Retreat a 10day retreat uh to naragansett Rhode Island actually and uh and I underwent there an experience of a realization that I was one with every everything and uh spent most of the time just wandering around the seashore with the Mantra sounding in my head I Am The Great I Am noticing I am I I am the universe feeling the Universe I I am what the universe is doing at this moment and so the illusion of Separation Andrew uh collapsed and I realized that I was the presence of the universe in human form after 13.7 billion years and I also realized that this changed everything that I was utterly changed and it would take me a lifetime at least one to um to integrate what this meant for my Christian faith and I it's safe to say that the last 15 20 years have been a process of taking a taking a look at the judeo-christian lineage Through The Eyes of of this experience of no separation um I'll add one more thing there before uh before we go on and that is that it wasn't a large step uh until I realized that this experience of being one with all that is uh then you start to ask yourself the question about okay what is what are the characteristics of this universe that I'm one with in this reality that I'm one with and I realized that what I was dealing with there was uh evolu tion that uh this immense creativity that gave birth to a world uh and which was um incarnating itself in a world was uh progressing and advancing and so I began to feel myself as the presence of that sacred impulse or a sacred as inspiration to evolve in and toward the heart and the mind of that out of which a universe uh emerged and is continuing continuing to emerge and so I took this framework This lends this this experience of mine back to the scripture back to the hymns and the songs that we sing back to how we do prayer and what does that mean and and then began to ask what are the practices that are aligned with this this uh this sacred impulse that I realized that had become the defining characteristic of me I experienced myself as that in human form all that creativity all that intelligence all that love uh was asking what what is the future that needs me in order to emerge and so I felt a uh a deep call and and and a return importantly of the conviction that I had lost as a liberal Progressive Christian well uh well the first thing I'd like to ask you Bruce is um is you described uh that you went on this Retreat and you had a very a powerful Awakening experience to traditionally what's called you know non nonduality you know the the the one with the all um and then you simultaneously described uh that that experience of non-duality at least in the way you just described it was what seemed to be simultaneous or one with the realization that you're part of a of a of a 14 billion year creative developmental process that had a beginning uh that led that that then that led you to to the that present moment in which you were having that experience or that realization so that's very unusual because um because there's definitely a difference between at least that I that I've noticed there's a difference between the experience of nonduality the the the traditional mystical breakthrough into realizing that there is only one non Duality means there's only one and not two and all all the most renowned Mystics from the greatest traditions of the world all tell us the same thing that the ultimate truth about the nature of reality and the ra and the and the nature of the self is that there is one and not two and so they all concur that the ultimate truth is that there is only one and that the ult and that the ultimate truth that liberates the human mind heart and soul is the direct realization recognition an insight to direct cognition of the fact that there's only one and not two now usually and and traditionally historically the real the realization uh of nonduality the realization of the fact that there's only one and not two uh did not include within it the Awakening to Evolution and you are a very you you've become a very articulate uh um um articulator uh of of an evolutionary worldview and an evolutionary mysticism and an evolutionary Christianity which we could speak uh more about in a moment but what I'm curious about is was that direct experience of nonduality uh did that did that occur or reveal itself simultaneously with an Awakening to Evolution or Awakening to an evolutionary worldview or or or did or what did you have an exper a more of a traditional mystical Insight or experience uh of the ultimate Singularity that is all of reality inner and outer and then come to an evolutionary understanding or an evolutionary interpretation after after that yeah that's a that's an aute question Andrew and in fact it took me a while as I was sort of dwelling within this kind of unitive Consciousness um it took me a while to integrate that that what I was dealing with was an evolutionary process I mean that took a while to crystallize for me actually maybe uh you know it was certainly there in the first year but I would say two or three years and and interestingly I think a lot of that Insight came through my interest in science I um I knew I mean intellectually that uh that reality was was evolutionary and so it just it just kind of slowly I think dawned on me that in the realm of becoming like there is this unitive experience I'm one with all Nono all and that the most real thing about me if I checked in with my body and my heart was that uh I was lit up almost from the GetGo from the time I arrived in this world of from the get-go with this uh yearning to um for development for to evolve and uh always asking my always pushing into what into the possible and so through my reading of Science and uh I I came it probably took a few years but uh that's when I began to realize that I was also one with the process of becoming so there was so so there was uh so you so then would you say that the actual experience was was was was the original experience was more of what we could what we could call a traditional mystical breakthrough or insight into the ultimate nature uh of the of the Oneness of all things inner and outer and then and then over a period of a few years after that experience uh an an evolutionary interpretation or began an evolutionary understanding began to emerge in your in in your in your Consciousness would that is it fair to say that that's right because you know what's very interesting what what occurred to me as you were just speaking is that um is that you said that when you were young you know that you were very much uh a a doer you the creative process was alive in you the awareness that you were part of a process that was going somewhere or something that you were lit up by you were turned on by from the very beginning and it reminded me of the great you know Eastern uh spiritual you know genius the great s arabindo because as as as you well know before he became an enlightened Mystic you know and a spiritual Master he was a he was he was a he was a revolutionary you know he was he was he was an active uh a very active revolutionary in the you know in the movement to to get the British to leave um uh you know to to give up power and control of Indian of Indian culture and Indian politics and so he he was very much he had a he had a very revolutionary uh and active and engaged relationship with life and with the life process uh to a very high degree obviously more more than most people he was I think he was considered the most by the British the most dangerous man in India so then of course when he had his spiritual his his very powerful spiritual realization and Awakening uh it it it it it was easy for me to see how he uh how that realization be became you know in in time uh in in evolutionary Enlightenment you know an evolutionary understanding and I I think it related very much to the fact of to what his predisposition his natural or inherent predisposition as a human being you know before before his Enlightenment and because this is this is one of the things that I've been one of the things that I you know I wonder about because this you know and an evolutionary worldview is is a new capacity in human consciousness and human cognition as we both know it's only an understanding about the universe that's only about 200 years old and then of course uh it's my understanding that with the great you know German idealists you know first and then with uh the great Catholic Theologian t d shardan in the west and the great sindo in the East there this this emerging understanding of the fact that we're part part of an evolutionary process development developmental process that had a beginning 14 billion years ago that's actually going somewhere uh be began to be experienced uh also as a as as a mystical or non-dual understanding about the ultimate nature of reality uh itself and um and it's how this this new and emerging uh understanding you know awakens to itself in in different individual ual is something that I'm very interested in and one of the things that I'm interested in in relationship to this which I think you'll find very interesting is that I've noticed and of course you know my background of course originally was in eastern spirituality and in the Eastern uh metaphysical uh understanding of Enlightenment which was more really about Transcendence of the world Transcendence of the Mind Transcendence of time Transcendence of space the body and the world and being free from the process ra you know uh trans sending the evolutionary creative process Alto together because we as we know that the Buddha himself uh was you know known to have said that that the the goal of spiritual enlightenment is to get off the wheel of becoming and of course we're and we're talking about you know Awakening to an understanding of evolution that is uh that is really a spiritual awakening that reveals to us that the ultimate nature of the creative process is nonduality itself is is that same Oneness but it's it's a new it's a new emergent or emerging mystical capacity um and so what I wanted to ask you about or just talk to you about is something I found very interesting that I've noticed that there are individuals in the East and the West you know or who have who have an Awakening or or you know to different levels and different degrees of a direct of a of a a direct aw to non-duality I suppose similar to what you experienced uh similar to the kind of experience that you H have had and that's an Awakening to what we would could call being you know Timeless formless being it's what the modern Mystic you know eart talks about all the time you the Awakening to Timeless formless being which I relate to the uh the that Timeless formless Dimension that exists prior to time and space prior to the universe that is what the Buddha called the unborn the uncreated that is eternal so there there are individuals that have have there are individuals that have different degrees of Awakening to that Dimension then there are other individuals that have an Awakening to Evolution they they they really get it you know because the evolutionary Awakening is very interesting it it can it can it can happen at a cognitive level that someone really understands that you know that you know the emergence of any energy in matter gave rise to mind gave rise to life which gave rise to mind and they can get intellectually that that this is all part of one Cosmic process that's going somewhere but you can tell that the realization is still mental that their understanding of evolution is still a mental intellectual understanding it hasn't yet The Awakening to Evolution the the experience of evolution has not yet awakened to itself at the level of their soul right but even the intellectual even even the intellectual appreciation in awaken devolution transforms a human being but there is still you know when someone really gets at an intellectual level they're different than other people because they their sense of and their sense of history and of time and and of place is is is H has a a a a this this deep deep deep time context everything is is seen in terms of big history but there's a difference between that and when individuals get it in at an intellectual level but but even more than that get it at a soul level their soul is awake to the what we could I I suppose we could call the this the spiritual or divine nature of the creative process itself and and there's also a difference between that and also uh the the the the Awakening to both to all three of those yeah which is the Awakening to all three of and it's not the same no it's not it's funny I was just reading from The Book of Job one of the readings for this Sunday day is that you know at the end of his big battle with god job says you know I had heard of you with the hearing of my ears but now I see with my own eyes and so that was his Awakening and so it's a whole another dimension to uh to begin to realize that I am that which I've been seeking I that the yearning that I feel most deeply is uh an indication that I am already embedded in this sacred evolutionary process and I am the presence of that that is manifesting itself in and through me and like you say there's a there's a whole new dimension of um there's a power an energetic that is associated with that we actually U we step into a uh a dynamism and a hope that informs our way of being and our orientation in the world that's I think undeniable in terms of The evolutionary folk that that I've met Andrew um so yeah absolutely you're right and one of the interesting things that I found as I as I kind of read scripture through this uh through this experience of mine you get you get a guy like Paul you know in his letters the authentic Pauline letters where he talks about feeling like he's been called to complete what had been started in the Christ so to perfect what was begun in Jesus whom he understood as the Christ so I think E I think there's an evolutionary intuition even in these folks who didn't have the benefit of Science and who couldn't but but who could nevertheless int it that they were involved with uh an ongoing creative process and um so uh uh so that's one of my areas of interest is just kind of taking a look at this Mythic scripture not not in not as a literal word of God but as but I look for the the intuition of the of the Arc of the narratives within for the presence of this uh sacred impulse to to evolve and develop and mature as uh manifestations of the Holy One and the holy Oneness so you you are um would it be fair to say that you are you're re reinterpreting and recontextualizing uh the the the Christian Mythic worldview in the in the context of of of really a cosmocentric worldview yeah exactly and you know acknowledging that there are lots of nasty bits in you know in in both Testaments that just you know it's it's it's hard to find the nuggets in there sometimes and that what's what's what's the definition of a nasty bit well you know you have this Warrior God who's stronger than your God and you know murders people because they're the enemy of Israel and all of that so you know there's there's stuff that you can't really redeem there but have to take it in you know contextualize it as the expression of a Mythic consciousness of a tribal Consciousness and you you can't get by that on the other hand I think if if you read it carefully you see in the judeo-christian tradition that the undeniable presence of not of a God who says to the people you need to you know escape this wheel of suffering and uh and jump up into some other realm but rather the presence of this Holy One leads them uh into deeper into the historical process and uh in other words to to be a light unto the nation so you you get these stories about God going behind and ahead of the people uh with the promise of a of a you know a promised land and if you don't take that literally but rather rather metaphorically there's this sense of being allured into this uh this promise of abundance that is that's just up ahead ever more abundance and of course Jesus picks this up as a good Jew and and the his core metaphor is kingdom of God or kingdom of God and um that uh and and he declares and teaches his followers about this promise that's available to them now but it's just out ahead of them they can you know even the resurrection stories where you know one of one of the Easter stories even if you don't take any of it literally but it's a great story um where you know the disciples arrive at the tomb it's empty and uh an angel there says why are you looking for Jesus in a you know in a tomb he's gone ahead of you to Galilee he'll meet you there so there's a sense in which the Risen Christ This Promise is always just ahead of us alluring us into a future that needs us in order to emerge uh so it's it's interesting for me to kind of do this evolutionary midrash on Ancient text so yeah so as as far as I understand that the original um the original Christianity was not and correct me if I'm wrong was you know was not about the promise of a better life after we die but but that but but that you know the spirit of God was was within us to be realized uh and awoken to now while we're here on Earth number one and then number two is what you're bringing to that is is the is the Awakening to the to the evolutionary impulse of The evolutionary orientation the or the experience of the experience of when we awaken to the evolution because you know as as we know when you awaken to Evolution it's not about being at least as I understand it it's not about being in the present moment you know it's not about being here now it's about it's always about the unmanifest potential that exist in the next moment and the next and the next and the next so it seems that what you're saying is both a a combination of the the the the the original teachings of Christ which were which which was is that the the Kingdom of Heaven is within you here and now with with an with an understanding of what it means to awaken Devolution which is the which is Awakening to that Omega point that t terish and I was speaking to all all of us about uh and and when we do awaken to the the tilos of that Omega Point our Consciousness and our attention is mysteriously and miraculously always compelled by the possible uh that that always exists slightly Beyond where we are right now yeah beautiful yeah exactly you know Jesus said you know anybody who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom you know let the dead bury the dead yeah you follow me right and so there's an unmistakable future orientation I think even as you step into uh even even as the now is the dwelling place of the Holy yet there is this other dimension in jesus' world view which is that there's a there's a future uh that that is waiting for us and that is compelling and and so you know I think the Easter stories are Bas essentially about that Jesus in some kind of way you know appears to the disciples and says it ain't over it's just begun you know it's like you know get going like now Proclaim and inact this future that is possible because you have been lit up by it and so um yeah I think you described it very well so when you when we were speaking earlier and you you talked about you telling about you speaking about your life story you you talked about um you know your your Awakening your original Awakening more to a more fundamentalist interpretation of scripture and then and then you you um you kind of transition out of that at a certain point and then you you said you you re you refound your faith in more in a more postmodern Progressive Christianity and then you made the the very astute point that the problem with Progressive postmodernism and postmodern philosophy in general is that it tends to deconstruct everything and and and one of the the big existential the spiritual or existential predicaments of of postmodern culture which has given us so much that is good you know with the emphasis of the the rights and freedoms you know of the individual and and for and for and for and for women and and the recognition of the Dignity of all human beings and races and cultures you know postmodernism has given us so much that is good at the same time it has I think and this is what you were speaking about it has really uh removed from us uh any Grand narrative any any any Mar any meta narrative any big picture perspective upon the Human Experience upon the present moment and which that that can help us to really contextualize the the meaning of our life the purpose of our life the significance of the Human Experience leaves us with kind of a a sense of of emptiness and uh existential uh uh uh uh yeah an existential vacuum as to well I'm here but I don't really know it doesn't seem to mean anything uh beyond beyond whatever I seem to make of it and so and so what I think for both of us the it's the it's the discovery of an evolutionary worldview you know which is the biggest picture that there is which is that you know we've been saying we're part of a process that definitely had a beginning in time and that seems to be seems to be going somewhere new always and at the very outer limits of this creative process from an anthrop at least from an anthropocentric point of view the most exciting and thrilling and at least to us apparently meaningful events that's happened in this entire 14-year process the emergence of mind because through through mind the energy intelligence that created the universe gains the capacity to Bear witness to itself to know itself to experience itself and that it's that understanding that that that we realize when we awaken to an evolutionary worldview that the creative process gains the capacity to awaken to itself recognize itself realize itself know itself through us through you and me here and now in the present moment in which human beings who are lost in in postmodern emptiness a suddenly discover an absolute non-relative deeply spiritual sense of purposefulness and meaningfulness in other words therefore my existence means something because the singular energy and intelligence that gave rise to the creative process gains the capacity to know itself through my mind and through my my human mind and through my human heart which gives which gives my life so much meaning and so much significance not not not because it's me not because it's Andrew or Bruce necessarily not not not not for narcissistic reasons but it's but it's it's an objective truth that because I exist and because I have these capacities this great this great and glorious inconceivably vast process gains gains these miraculous powers and capacities which me which makes me which makes my life mean something absolutely thank you I love that and the other thing I love about this whole thing is you know I started talking about this in church some decade or so ago people it's it's strange Andrew because some people started experiencing this the reality that you know we are the presence of this evolutionary impulse in human form you know wanting to uh wanting to shape a future that's that that that transcends but includes this this current iteration of who we are and imagine ourselves to be but they experience this as a kind of pressure it's like oh well now not only do I have to come to church but I have to evolve I mean you know so getting across the idea that like his you know in the church we've had this notion of Grace right and and to realize that this uh evolutionary impulse is absolutely the foundation and the ground of our becoming that it's not a matter of having to try it's a matter of of getting your life removing the obstacles to allow the natural Grace of this evolutionary impulse to have its way with us and so I you know it's like you don't need to teach a or you don't need to put the the yearning in a toddler to walk toddler going to want to walk it's going to it's going to awaken to this deep yearning to get up and walk and in the same kind of way I think that if we could remove the spiritual practice is it's seems to me as much about as anything else is just one by one removing the obstacles the psychological and the cultural obstacles to stepping into what is most real about us that is that defines the essence of us so it's not a burden it's a it's a it's an ecstatic opportunity you know to to step into this so anyways it's uh but and this is the way everyone you know uh you always want we talk about the Holy Spirit in the church you know and for me this is the other thing that happened like how do we experience that whatever we mean by that for me it it it means minimally that you are tapped in to the Creative Energy that gave birth to the universe and continues to give birth to the universes to a universe now and now and now and so we can have a direct experience of what the tradition's called the Holy Spirit you know of spirit and so I think that's very exciting because it grounds what we're doing not in dogma and not in Creed and not in beliefs anymore but in the actual experience of what God or Spirit or the universe is doing right now in through and as us and it and it uh it it represents a return of of conviction that there is conviction in the post postmodern world you know it's like uh and and the part of the problem I see going on the decline of the Protestant Church frankly the mainland Church all over North America and it's already happened in Europe and Great Britain is that the the absence in the leadership of this conviction of course yeah it's is part of the story I'm not saying I'm not laying at all on you know the spiritual leaders of these Traditions by any means there's a secular ization of of modern culture and it's catching up with us all of that but in the absence of conviction in the spiritual leaders you're not going to be able to reverse that Trend well no I mean we I mean I to to me it's apparent that um that most of the time Spirit really reveals itself to us through through it it reveals itself through us through us so so I mean it's not a it's no mystery that throughout human history history it has been it it it most of the time it has it has been charismatic awakened charismatic individuals who have uh drawn the attention of others to uh to to to to subtle domains of Consciousness that otherwise people would have not noticed not I mean not not in every single case obviously and and these the these moments of of of of of deeper Transcendent insight you know can happen at any time and and could happen in the midst of Nature and otherwise but I mean uh I mean the the religious impulse in human beings throughout history has has really been one in which in in which we remind each other about these these these higher and deeper capacities uh in in different ways through through spending time together you know in different ways and shapes and forms one of the things I wanted to respond to in terms of what you were saying before about the about you said it's not it doesn't really have to be so such a struggle here it's really about removing the obstacles to the to the nature of the spiritual impulse The evolutionary impulse that's already there and you know the it's really about surrender in the end and and the and in the end you know the the ultimate battlecry of surrender is as as we all know not my will be done but thy will but thy will be done it's it's it's surrendering the will of the small self to the will of um of this of these deeper dimensions of who we are the ISS I think the reason that I think many people find it so challenging outside the presence of the company of an individual who has what I call spiritual self-confidence you know who's who's grounded or stabilized to some degree in this in this knowing is that when we awaken to Evolution or to God or Spirit as Evolution as the creative process in the universe our values our Traditional Values our modern values and our postmodern values are affected so and and we tend to organize our lives and make our the important choices in our lives based upon our you know based upon culturally shared values so when we in a Flash awaken to the glory of the inherent liberation of The evolutionary impulse then we suddenly understand the quote that you used earlier uh when Christ said you know let the dead bury the dead I mean I I I've use that myself often because I recognized I recognized what he meant when he said those words because only someone who is awake to The evolutionary the spirit as The evolutionary impulse would be uttering the words Let the dead bury the dead which means because bearing the dead for Jews is is a sacred ritual that that that could could not be avoided you know one had to do it and and it was an enormous transgression not to a a transgression against God and against you know against against one's sacred obligation so so to so to to have the experience of no even that even there's something more important than than even that uh is you know is the Awakening to and the and the and the the call of the Evol of spirit as The evolutionary impulse now it's one thing to Glimpse the the the the the shocking frightening glorious liberating truth of that in in a moment of insight but to I mean I think it to be honest to to have the courage to live with that with that freedom of spirit with that courage and freedom of spirit does will does and will challenge our traditional modern and also postmodern values at the deepest level and I think that is at least that's what I find you know I think what people have trouble with not so much in the in the experience itself but in the but in all enabling the experience to lead to actual transformation is is is is the transformation is the Deep transformation at the level of shared values which which is uh which is a big deal yeah and I love the work you're doing with that in your community Comm there Andrew uh in in one of my books I I I talk about um this term I came across you know in terms of describing how threatened the culture of postmodernism can be by this particular worldview and spirituality evolutionary spirituality and I forget who it was but he came up with a term uh um for the addiction one of the addictions of this postmodern Society is he he calls us a apoc holics that we're addicted to the apocalyptic scenario and that we we scour The Horizon for bad news in order to justify our sense that things are getting worse and worse and worse and we play that game that Eric burn in the 1960s his transactional analysis called ain't it awful ain't we awful um and and and frankly I think there's a lot of that uh going on in the denomination that I'm a part of is this that we can't really feel into the hope and I think one of the reasons we can't feel into the hope is because we're not getting that the universe is about creativity and about bringing forth new Futures and and that when you begin to identify with that as the core of your identity not with the small self not with your personality not with the culture cult Al defined expressions of who we're supposed to be but rather with that impulse itself there is a hope that I mean that emerges and I get nailed on this I go around giving talks about this and everyone finds me way too optimistic and way too hopeful and and uh I'm not taking seriously enough uh the awful things that are going on in the world and absolutely there are awful things going on in the world and um but I think if we could uh Orient ourselves towards those awful things from a place of hope uh we might be more effective well I completely agree with you and as a matter of fact uh uh part of what helped me to uh awaken e awaken more to a progress perspective right yeah the p word the p word was actually reading your book because uh who you quoted um there were you quoted um what's the name of the Matt Ridley yeah yeah yeah so that I was Off to the Races there and between Matt Ridley and uh and Stephen Pinker who wrote the better the better angels of our nature I mean uh you know I I have over the last year I've I've also started to speak about progress which is the big which is the best C kept secret in the world and obviously as as you fully recognize and fully understand and most people don't appreciate that in that in that even in the face of the enormous Global challenges and crises that we're facing which everybody already knows what they are I don't need to repeat them here you know oh you know global warming overpopulation the degradation of the environment Etc um the life conditions are better for more people and more human beings than they've ever been there's less violence in the world than there ever been than there ever has been and it's and and the reason that there is hope or reason to feel good about ourselves is because is because when we understand how this progress took emerge it's because of cultural Evolution it was because of the leap from a traditional worldview to to a mo to a modern worldview modernism the Western Enlightenment right changed the world and of course it it it changed the world for the better right and and which then led to postmodernism uh um you know mo modernism enable you know before modernism there was there was very few Hales very few wealthy and educated people and and most people were living really a level of survival and and modernism enabled the common men and common women you know to to get an education and to pull themselves up and um you know and that was the emergence of of you know of of the of the middle classes in the western world and of course postmodernism with the abers of a PO you know with postmodernism was fair was fairness and equality and equal rights and rights for blacks and and and and and women so many so we we have so many we have made so much progress and the thing is I I dare to say it's not because of religion it's because of cultural Evolution and we've done it you know in in all our imperfection because we're all we're obviously all works in progress so in all our imperfection we have accomplished so much that is good and there's and our and our progress if we look it's we can look all around us we can see it right here and right now and it doesn't mean of course that they're not enormous problems challenges that we're facing but we have so much to feel good about and what I that how I respond is I say we should gain a little spiritual self-confidence in ourselves because look at what we've done which shows what we're capable of therefore instead of feeling overwhelmed by the by the enormity of the challenges we're facing we should actually realize we have enormous power to affect change for the good which we already have done and and and based on just the the objective observation of the truth of that we you know we can gain the confidence to be able to keep going I love that you know one of the one evolutionary principle that I lean on quite a bit Andrew is that you know it Evolution proceeds by preserving its best achievements and its best achievements become platforms for the new thing that's going to emerge so I like to say that you know the the universe has produced a Jesus of Nazareth it's produced a Buddha it's produced an Andrew Cohen you know it's it's and and therefore you know just like you know you're saying we have every reason to hope that this is now possible like look look at what is is going on and what the universe has achieved and let's take it forward from there well we have so much to feel good about don't we we do and because you've you've brought up the word hope many times that you know I think I think what you have you've meant or said is that Awakening to Evolution gives us and a preach just object ly appreciating it gives us hope and also conviction yeah conviction and I was reading uh I was reading one of the chapters from your book uh this morning uh just to prepare to to you know to to to speak to you and and this is one of the things that you were that you were writing about this is you know this is a great it's a it's it's a it's it's a great secret I mean once once we realize that that that the way I I put it is that the the desire to exist in the cosmos the cosmic desire to exist is inherently good overwhelmingly positive at its root at its core in spite of all the difficult and challenging things that that can happen will happen and do happen when we know that that that that the desire to exist in the cosmos the creative impulse in the cosmos is inherently good it changes our worldview and and gives us a a a source of of of courage of courage to to to to to strive to live live a good life a life of mean a life that means something yeah yeah and even when it's tough and when we're going through times of suffering or letting in the our own suffering or the suffering of others you know I think there's a grace even in that Andrew and one of one of maybe the distinctive contributions of of the Christian tradition is leaving in a central in a place across where um you know if we choose to situate ourselves in the fragile places both within and in the presence of the fragility of others and open ourselves to that then this is another practice uh by which the evolutionary process is naturally going to carry us forward facing into the fragile places um so so it doesn't doesn't you know it doesn't matter if you're feeling ecstasy or you're facing into your suffering this uh this this creativity is going to come through even in the most fragile places there's a I know you're probably needing to end but there's this French Catholic geop physicist Xavier lupon who uh was the first to take submersibles down to the bottom of the ocean and there see how these tectonic plates are crossing over each other and he saw all the life that's emerging in where where they're shifting I mean that may be the origin of life on Earth he finished with that and then he had then for some reason he was convicted that he wasn't caring enough for the suffering of the world and he left it behind and he went and lived with Mother Teresa for 3 years and held dying babies in his arms for three years and then took his family to live with the lar Community which is a handicapped communities the priest there was Wise Wise enough to say to him yeah it's great what did but we need you to do your science and so out of this marriage of this this the the the shifting of the tectonic plates and his experience holding these dying babies he developed what might be called a Theology of fragility because when the tectonic plates of our hearts begin to shift that's where the life is and that even there this uh this this evolutionary impulse breaks through if we will if we will if we will face into our own suffering and the suffering of others um do you feel that um do you feel that it's because in those moments when we're willing to face into the fragility of life and the suffering in inherent the inherent suffering in that fragility that we uh that are that our that our pride that our arrogance and our pride and our [Music] um that our self-c concern is seen through or is sure sure I mean it's a it's a it's one of the primary ways in which we transcend the the small self where we enter into empathically the reality of another human being we get outside of ourselves and I think situating ourselves in these fragile places um you know it it does exactly that it it gives us the opportunity for us to be empathically related to another human being and so you know you get a book by Jeremy riffen the empathic civilization where he tracks this trajectory of empathy from the dawn of civilization to postmodern society and there's an undeniable empirical case to be made that we are growing in our capacity for empathy and it begins with allowing ourselves to feel into our own the depths of our own suffering and the depths of others suffering and to evolve along this empathic line of intelligence and and thereby break out of our kind of narcissistic smaller uh identities so if we if we can uh if we have the the humility to kind of be able to uh face into and directly experience the the the fragility of our own nature and the fragility of each other's nature and the fragility of life itself and simultaneously awaken to the immortal nature of the cre of the creative impulse well something's really happening that's the Paradox right Andrew yes I think it's a um I think it's a piece of this evolutionary spirituality that that I want to explore more to hold exactly what you said in that kind of tension or that paradox no it's it's it's an it's interesting terrain it's an absolute Paradox and I feel it in my in myself in myself you know and and it's and it is a paradox I mean one has to be able to hold it with humility and not insist on one or insist on the other and find the the the courage and the big-heartedness and big mindedness to be able to hold both precisely that's that's a big challenge well bris it's been an absolute Delight to uh to talk to you I know we're we're just only getting started yes well you know you're going to be here in a couple weeks very much so I I very much look forward to seeing you soon and and well let's consider this the the first of the first of our dialogues because I I I think there there's so much there's so much more that uh there's so much more that we I think we need to talk about I'd love to maybe the next time we talk I'd love to talk to you more about um about the whole issue of of of of of hum of human transformation and and and speaking about more uh how you how you teach and how you look at the the whole questions of how of of of transformation and the personal implications of it you know I think that would be love that I think I think that would be I think that would be great for us to speak to it so thank you so much it's been a a a a thrill and a pleasure and a delight I I the feelings Mutual thank you so much see you my friend thank you so much byebye [Music]