ACTV - Andrew Cohen interviews Dr Melanie Joy

[Music] [Music] e so hello I'm Andrew Cohen I'm and I'm here with Dr Melanie Joy who's the author of why we love dogs eat pigs and wear cows and um I discovered Melanie's work uh her book I think about six months ago and she has done some fascinating study on the psychology of eating meat and I've been a vegetarian for about 26 years and so this is a subject I'm I'm interested in uh and Melanie's made some um intriguing uh points in her thesis that uh I wanted to follow up with her in person and I'm so glad to have the opportunity to do that so I thought to begin with today um why not for our listeners to please give a a you know a brief introduction to to your thesis well that's uh great Andrew thank you thank you so much for helping me raise Consciousness raise awareness about carnism and for the work that you're doing the invaluable work that you're doing on on Consciousness um so in answer to um this question that I get so often what exactly is carnism I like to use an example I like to ask people to imagine that they are a guest at a dinner party and their host serves them a delicious beef stew and then I ask them to imagine that they ask the host for her recipe and flattered she replies well the secret is in the meat you need to start out with 3 lbs of extra lean golden retriever now now most people's response to that comment at least in much of the western world today is an example of carnism carnism is essentially the invisible belief system that conditions us to eat certain animals carnism is the term I came up with after I started working on my doctoral dissertation on the psychology of eating animals I had grown up myself eating animals um meat or flesh eggs and dairy for much of my life and I also Al grew up as a person who cared about animals and I never thought about how strange it was that I could be petting my dog with one hand and eating a pork chop with the other a pork chop that had once been an animal who was at least as intelligent and sensitive and conscious as my dog and I ended up um getting actually quite sick from having eaten a hamburger and I stopped eating meat and then I stopped eating all animal products and I had a profound shift of Consciousness and I became very curious about what had happened to me I became curious about how I had been able to eat animals um really without even questioning the choice that I was making um and I became curious about um how I hadn't even uh reflected on my choice or even recognized that eating animals was a choice and and so that led me to uh interview meat eaters and meat Cutters and butchers and vegans and vegetarians about their experience of eating or not eating animals and it was my research that led me to recognize that the attitudes and behaviors that so many individuals in society have toward eating animals do not exist in a vacuum virtually everybody I interviewed had uh very similar experience of eating or not eating animals and and such attitudes and behaviors don't exist in a vacuum they don't come out of nowhere and so that's when I recognize that there is this ISM and what's really really striking about this ISM that I came to call carnism is that it is a it's a particular type of belief system or ideology it is a dominant ideology that means it's invisible it's entrenched it shapes Norms laws beliefs behaviors Etc and it's also a violent ideology it's literally organized around violence meat cannot be procured without killing and so dominant violent ideologies such as carnism need to use a set of Social and psychological defense mechanisms to enable Humane people to participate in inhumane practices without fully realizing what they're doing in other words carnism teaches us how not to feel it teaches us to shut down our thinking and block our empathy to block our awareness and our authentic emotions when it comes to eating animals the invisibility of carnism is is why we see eating animals as a given rather than Choice most people don't even recognize that we have a choice when it comes to eating animals we tend to believe it's only vegans and vegetarians who bring their beliefs to the dinner table uh but most of us don't learn to eat pigs but not dogs for instance because we don't have a belief system when it comes to eating animals when eating animals is not a necessity for survival which is the case in much of the world today not all of the world but in much of the world today then it is a choice and choices always stem from beliefs one of the things that I appreciate so much about your work is that you is that you have a fiercely ra rational argument about a very emotionally charged issue for most people and so and so as I said this isn't something much that I spoke about in general but ever since I've uh ever since I've heard your argument ever since you have been uh ever since I heard your argument when you were you know relating the whole notion of of carnism you know to the evolution of Consciousness uh I've started to uh you know this was a person this was a personal preference of mine it has been a personal preference as I as I told you for you know for for half my life but you you raised the question that may maybe there's a bigger issue here that has that has to do with Evolution itself and so because of that I I feel that even though it's not uh you know it's not really what I'm what I'm teaching felt uh this this was something I could raise because I could put it in the context of the evolution of Consciousness and the evolution of culture as an open question and I usually say that that you know that I usually tell people about the name of your book because the name of your book really says so much and then I I tell people about the trailer for your book you know and which explains a lot and then I then I explain that that you uh I that you that you said there's a relationship between between the eating of meat and the evolution of Consciousness and how you associate you make the association with racism which would mean that H what has made it possible for one group of human beings to mistreat or treat another group of being as being less human you said there is a there's a capacity in the brain or the mind to cut off as you were speaking about earlier in the interview that makes it that that makes it possible for us to not see that that other human beings have an equal degree of sence as we do and therefore we'll be able we we can mistreat them abuse them you rape them torture them and kill them and then you related that to sexism how how uh for a long periods of time in history women haven't been treated with you know equal rights and fairness and equal opportunities and you're saying this is this is this this is the same the same function or capacity and Consciousness that was at work that obscures that obscures uh a a a a deeper truth which is which is that all human beings are you know are created equal and then then you made the association to bring it to animals that we that there's the same function is happening in the way we see animals and then you make make the obvious description how can we love one one animal and and and and see see its sensient and see its interiority and and and love it sometimes as much as we love each other and not be able to see the sence in others so I bring all that up and and then I often ask the qu I what I try to do is I say well I I'm because I I'm not completely sure what you're saying is absolutely true it is my experience so what you describe in your thesis is very true to my own personal subjective experience what you describe as what I experience personally um I I H I I believe I personally believe that this is true but I'm not at the point in my own research into your intriguing Pro proposition I can say it's absolutely true so that's where I am in all this but so what I like to do then is bring this up with some of the most intelligent people that I know and see what happens but but but the thing is uh there is something about eating meat and eating eggs you know that um that brings up very charged and very powerful emotions and and often uh often very fear often people that have uh highly developed uh uh capacities for complex thinking often in relationship to this area uh it uh um that capacity often gets challenged in interesting ways and one of the things that I've that I've thought about and I'm I'm really curious to hear your thoughts about as I noticed that that this is probably what you would call one of the myths about about eating meat is that that um that meat represents I think because of how we've been what we've been taught in our psyches the uh uh you know protein but but but the the the the essence of what is going to nourish us it rep it represents that and and and of course you know food you know food we all have an emotional connection with food so if if food represents that which is going to give us the the the the greatest sustenance and and and the greatest satisfaction of course there's there's a deep and profound emotional attachment to that particular experience and usually our attachment to that experience is so strong that it it does seem to be able to obscure uh other capacities for compassion and sensitivity that that that's that the same may people may have in other areas well I mean you um first of all thank you um and I you know I I you you raised a lot of really great points and really great questions I want to make sure that I I respond to all of them so just took a few notes here so I wouldn't forget um you you talk about um presenting a rational argument for what's an emotionally charged issue and um you know in fact both are true it is emotionally charged it should be emotionally charged the reaction of the dominant cult culture to dismiss the emotionality of the issue is no different than the reaction of the dominant racist culture in pre- evolition America for instance who called the Abolitionist sentimentalists um because they were getting emotional about um an issue that others were not emotional enough about one way that dominant oppressive systems that require this level of Disconnect and and dampening of awareness and empathy maintain themselves is by Framing proponents of the social movements that challenge them as um being as possessing um the qualities that are antithetical to the dominant culture or that the dominant culture doesn't value so for instance you know proponents of um uh civil rights for instance and vegans as well have been portrayed as biased and extremist simply for challenging the biases and extreme practices of the culture or they're portrayed as overly emotional and sensationalists for challenging the apathy and the numbing of the dominant culture so a dominant culture has a way in which it's it's constantly projecting onto so-called the ideological minorities that that would challenge it and you know if we shoot the messenger we don't have to take seriously the implications of his or her message um what I had wanted to do with with my book in part was to raise awareness of carnism for for vegans but also obviously for non-vegans because for many people like yourself and um to some degree like my self we come to this issue because we make that connection we're not quite sure why we're not quite sure how but at some point in our own development we get to the point where we are no longer able to participate in something that is so antithetical to our core values in some ways that it just feels viscerally wrong and so many vegans have a visceral understanding that their philosophy is right and is Meaningful and is healthy and makes sense but to be able to articulate this can be very challenging and I think it's very challenging to articulate it without recognizing that that eating meat and other animal products it's not simply a matter of personal ethics it's not any more a personal preference um you know than it was to own slaves at some day at some point in time and it's it is not simply a matter of personal ethics it's the inevitable end result of a deeply entrenched oppressive ISM and so to liberate ourselves we've got to step outside of this syst this ISM and this system um I I've been working very hard to raise awareness that that carnism or that eating animals is in fact a social justice issue no different than the other social different in some ways but in the most fundamental ways no different than some of the other social justice issues that virtually everybody is on board with now and you when we look at systems like carnism or racism or sexism you know the experience of each set of victims will always be somewhat unique but these idey IES themselves are structurally similar because the mentality that enables the violence is exactly the same it's the mentality of Oppression and um domination it's the mentality of privilege it's the mentality the might makes right mentality it's a very dualistic Way of perceiving the World it requires a tremendous amount of psychic numbing it requires us to disconnect psychologically and emotionally from the truth of our experience and from the truth of the experience of those who our choices are directly impacting um you had talked about how the most rational people tend to support carnism and sometimes they can come up with the most rational arguments or seemingly rational arguments for it but it's it's important to recognize that carnism creates an illogical loyalty to eating animals the system itself is truly insane it's completely irrational it it really is it's completely irrational when we deconstruct it we can see that the Arguments for eating certain animals but not others or for eating any animals at all are based on on myths that the culture has presented as facts they're nothing more than a widely held set of opinions that we've inherited from a system that's become self-perpetuating now there are vested interests in maintaining the caristico aggra business in the United States is $125 billion per year industry so there is definitely a vestig interest in keeping people asleep as it were on this path to maintain an oppressive status quo um you also pointed out how meat is um I don't know if you used this word but but meat is symbolic um for people you're saying that that that it's got to be something deeper because we don't eat animals because we need to we eat animals because we choose to so why are we choosing to I think it's important to recognize that you know when it comes to veganism anyway the facts often do not sell the ideology um and they don't sell the ideology because asking someone well there are two reasons for it one is that asking somebody to stop eating animals is not simply asking for a behave change of behavior it's asking for a profound shift of Consciousness it's asking for us to perceive ourselves as strands in the web of life rather than standing at top so-called hierarchical life at ladder of life it's it's asking for us to to question authority to question what we've been taught it's it's asking us to um you know open to the the reality of the Unspeakable suffering of trillions of sensient beings whose screams go unheard in the United States Alone 10 billion times per year it's it's asking for us to re-evaluate how we want to relate to ourselves other beings in our world and this shift of conscious ious in my opinion is tremendously empowering and in fact I believe that most people really do want to do want to be more self-connected I I've been on a national speaking tour it's now become an international speaking tour presenting my slideshow my presentation on carnism um for two years this is the end of the second year now and I've spoken to countless um people who have eaten animals all their lives like most of us like I had for so much of my life my talks have been around the world often standing room only not because people in Croatia for instance actually know who I am but because they actually want to know why they eat why they love dogs eat pigs and wear cows and the response is almost always the same people say I had no idea and it's not just that they had no idea about the truth of animal Agra business or animal agriculture many of us do I mean this is one of the reasons that it's a little bit bit confusing when we think about the fact that the facts don't sell the ideology we can have rational caring people who witness horrific footage of Slaughter and say that's terrible and next the next day they end up the McDonald drive-thru and in my opinion it's because um because witnessing needs to happen on two levels true witnessing is not just a cognitive process it's not just becoming intellectually aware of suffering it's taking that real the reality of that suffering into your heart we witness with our eyes but we truly witness with our hearts so and we all do this it's self-protective to a large degree but it's not until people allow themselves to truly bear witness to really make the connection between the authentic truth of their experience and the truth of somebody else's experience that they can have that shift of Consciousness that will inevitably probably make them feel disgusted by eating other animals and if not disgusted by eating other animals at least least perceive the inherent fundamental Injustice of killing somebody for no other reason than because we like the way his or her thighs taste yeah I was very uh very um very clearly said you know um I uh I've spent a lot of time in India and uh got I've been there probably twice in the last uh eight months or so and as you know in India there's a there's a real there's a birth of a new Rising middle class and and this Rising middle class I mean not to speak of every every individual but genu genuinely are making the shift from uh from what we could call Traditional Values to Modern values so so so so Hindus traditionally are vegetarians and they of course rever Cows as being Sac sacred and so um and so um many Indians who are rising up you know through you know through higher education and U becoming you know part part of the larger Marketplace and are going through this transition you know earn earning more money their lifestyle is changing they're making they're making uh the shift from Traditional Values to secular values uh are also going from being vegetarian to being meaters and it's it's it's a strange thing for me like I I went to India for the first time in 1984 and uh and now when you go back in all the major cities there are lots of McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chickens everywhere right and um and it's you know um it to me it it was it's it's it's it it's very you know it's painful but it's also very it's also very interesting interesting because these values that we're speaking about are you know are are also set in cultural you know they're they're they're part of cultural mindsets and and that's and and that's you know one of the things that that's one of the that that's what I'm finding so intriguing about about it is about what it is that you know that you're saying um that when these indiv because the the traditional you know the traditional you know belief system in India was that was was this recognition you know Le not in all of India but in in most of India uh there wasn't there was a this perception existed in ancient IND Indian culture this this intuition about the about about the Oneness of all of all of life and so now when there's there there's a leap from Traditional Values to Modern values they're accepting the modern perspective on on all this and I and I I with with knowing how horrendous factory farming is in in this country I can't even imagine how bad it would be in such a crazy place like um uh like India well my guess is that it's no worse than it is here because with the um complete and utter lack of accountability of uh massive you know Kos uh or uh corporations that own Kos um or factory farms um it's probably just as bad as it is here it's whenever somebody is reduced to nothing other than a unit of production it's inevitable that their welfare will be secondary to the profits their body will turn so it's um you know it's interesting that you point this out and it's true and and and meat eating is actually um increasing in parts of the world other than India you know parts of Asia where we saw far less and in some cases virtually no meat eating before it's sort of like smoking as you know people become aware of the dangers and problems with smoking in the wealthier Nations then they start Outsourcing some of this um these ideas this ideology to to other places and you know of course as eating animals is on the rise in these other countries so is um sore diseases like heart disease and diabetes and cancer and you know obesity you know which were almost unheard of in many places in the world but it's important I think to differentiate between constructed values and True Values if we think about our core values you know if you took a a cross-section of you know virtually of people across um any number of cultures most people would say that they have the same set of core values you know values such as compassion reciprocity the Golden Rule fairness and Justice you know values that are diametrically opposed to carnism and then of course we have constructed values and they values um you know that that teach us to um uh that that exercising our power over another is an appropriate and legitimate thing to do in certain circumstances when it gets us to to be perceived in a certain way with a certain image for instance in our society and you know these constructed values are incredibly problematic because they conditioned us to act against what we would probably choose to act like if we weren't so conditioned um it's true values in my opinion are about reflect our core Integrity I mean that's what what Integrity is it's the integration of values and practices ultimately and most human beings hold the same set of core human values um it's when it comes right down to it carnism like the other isms eating animals it's really about power um it's really about power and it's about illus power in a sense it's interesting because people who eat animals um there's a book called meat a natural symbol and the author Nick Fitz writes in it that uh meat eaters what does he say see themselves as eating life vegans see that as eing [Laughter] death and so you know it's really what it really comes down to I mean just just simplify everything we've been talking about is that we do have a choice and once people you know it's my goal has been to raise awareness of carnism so that people can make their choices freely um and to to reconnect with their authentic thoughts and feelings because I believe that without awareness there is no free choice we need to become aware of not just the reality of animal agriculture but the of the system that guides our food choices like an invisible hand that's shaped our preferences and our beliefs and our constructed values from the time we were you know from the moment we were weaned we were eating our Gerber turkey and rice dinner we were eating dead animals before we could say our own names and so once we become aware of this system we can reclaim our own authenticity and then make choices about how we want to participate in the system because For Better or Worse we are all participants in the system so our choice is not whether we participate but how we participate do don't you think that um that this particular issue took you know change shape and form uh and significance once human beings became the dominant species on the planet because in other words be uh for most of history for most of human history human beings were eded Ed in the biosphere but now but but now human beings control the biosphere and I think it's it's that that that shift of position brings this particular issue to the four in a way in which it didn't exist before and I think that this this particular you know this argument um I think would have been a more difficult argument uh you know a thousand years ago or 500 years ago at least in in my way of thinking but but now but now that we've become the dominant life force of Domin dominant species on the planet and we could even we could literally say that the biosphere at this point is more or less living within us uh I'm not sure if that's quite true but it's it's it's definitely partially true then that's when this question really uh comes to the four I mean I mean to me to me it's it's hard to it's hard to argue it's hard to argue the point in other words um I think and you know when when mediating was a matter of survival and when and when uh I mean I'm sure there there there there could be many reasonable arguments in in a in a very different you know environmental context but in the world we're living in I mean what I what again what I appreciate about what you're arguing is because there is um there's so many other issues to there's so many other issues to this you know the effects on the environment you know factoring factory farming and all these things which in and of themselves should be enough to convince anybody that it just doesn't make any sense in terms of our in terms of our our the global crisis and Global predicament and we're it we we could almost say that it's a luxury that if meeting is something that we believe even is a reasonable thing to do we I we could argue in that context that luxury we all can't afford but even without that I I I once again just to keep repeating you know I feel that this whole issue in relationship to the evolution of Consciousness is what intrigues me the most I wanted to uh uh I wanted to bring up I I heard an interesting Slightly bizarre story the other day uh a little shocking that I just wanted to present to you because I because it it represents you know the odd things that happened as culture evolves and I I don't know I think someone told me about this story that happened in California with a group of a group of uh men and this this group of guys uh I'm sure I have a feeling they were all white boys got together and um they performed a ceremony and I don't I wish I knew more details but what I heard was they it was kind of a men's group men's group and they they got a sheep they got together and I think they they they encircled a sheep or something like that they they killed the Sheep uh and they skinned the sheep and then they ate the raw meat of the sheep as some kind of WR of Passage kind of something like that now of course things like that I find you know immediately you know horrifying and appalling beyond measure on one I mean that's my in instinctive response um but then when I step back you know and I Ponder you know I Ponder uh I I I Ponder something like this I I I start to see that the that the that the cultural that the that the cultural circumstances that would give rise to a situ because these these the individuals that did this these weren't like you know uh um you know rednecks or anything these were like these were like you know sensitive thoughtful spiritual guys so and I and I suppose it was I again I don't really know much about it but I suppose it had to do with getting in touch with a part of themselves that maybe maybe they thought they left behind a long time ago but anyway I was I was curious what your thoughts about something like that were well I think it's a it is kind of a bizarre story but it's actually not that bizarre when you think about the context of the world that we live in and how it teaches us to relate to animals and particularly the animals we learn to think of as um being constructed simply for our culinary Pleasures it's simply you know it's it's just if you think about um I would say it's an exaggeration of what's already happening you know we're we're we're slaughtering billions and billions of those beings we're slaughtering you know 20,000 a minute in the United States land animals we're not even talking about marine life or Aquatic Life it could Quint the number could quintuple so 20,000 land animals are slaughtered every minute in our own backyards here in the United States so a group of people just chose to slaughter one of those animals themselves look at the culture they've grown up in look at the messages that they've gotten I mean they walk out the door like all of us do and trucks of body parts drive by and you know we're conditioned to have our mouths water when we see that rather than to feel offended and horrified we see advertisement for instance with pigs dancing over the fire pits in which they're supposed to be cooked beseeching us to eat them happily and we're we're surrounded by absurdities carnism is an insane absurd system that blinds us to the absurdities of the system so that when one act like this which is simply I think a it's simply an exaggerated quote unquote version or a closer a closer up version of what's already happening all the time every second of the day all around us but that's just been kept Invisible by the culture when the invisible becomes a little bit V visible people stop and say oh my God how strange that is it's not strange at all it's it's happening everywhere now I think what you're pointing out though and I agree with you if I'm correct in in this assumption and I'm glad you raised this example is that it does take a certain a different type of mentality to kill somebody yourself directly than to you know go to the supermarket and buy somebody who's neatly packaged up and who's not seen as somebody anymore um but it's a matter of degree I mean psychic numbing is psychic numbing it's just a matter of degree are we you know how much do we have to numb ourselves on our own versus how much does the culture help us numb out when we think about psych psychic numbing you know which is really it's simply not experiencing fully it's not being connected to the truth of your experience psychologically and emotionally we do this all the time adaptively we would have to we couldn't walk out the door if we didn't numb ourselves to some degree cuz we live in a violent and unpredictable world it's and and victims of violence need to do this to cope with the trauma they've experienced but psychic numbing becomes maladaptive versus adaptive when it's used to enable violence rather than to cope with violence at least in my opinion sure and you know whether that violence is up close and personal like this experience you're talking about or whether that violence is as far away as the windowless sheds in which animals are turned into things so you know I'm glad that you raised that um well you know well part well part of this is that I think um I think I mean I think there are individuals who feel well I mean I I think for some people we consider this a right of passage in the in the sense that they would again I'm just this a supposition but I'm sure they would say well yes but if I if I kill it myself then I'm actually I I think they would probably think this in a way they're actually taking responsibility for what they're doing and they're not this isn't my position but I'm just saying what what the thinking is but in a way I'm actually getting in touch with the reality of what's involved in eating meat and I'm taking responsibility through doing it with my own hands and that and that would then change the you know you know would change the scenario so to speak right if you think and that is what people for instance who support you know quote unquote sustainable or quote unquote humanely raised and killed animals you know would argue and you know I think most people want to do the right thing and um you animal aggro business the industry has essentially you know taken co-opted some of the I shouldn't say co-opted but they've they've taken this opportunity of people becoming more aware of the horrors of animal agriculture to package a new concept of eating animals and saying well if you do it yourself then somehow it's more Humane but if you think about this this is it's like the ultimate absurdity of car ISM it's a it's another it's it's almost like if we ritualize it then somehow it makes it more par palatable I mean imagine if we were to say this about something that we've all come to consensus about that that is not an acceptable um social behavior like rape oh well you know I didn't pay somebody else to rape them I did it myself or murdering another human being well I didn't pay somebody else to murder them I murdered them with my own hands and that proves you mean what are we really saying I mean the the message that the dominant culture is giving us over and over again in both of these instances is that empathy and compassion are qualities to be transcended rather than cultivated why should we celebrate our capacity to transcend our empathy and compassion for others it's absurd when we deconstruct it but it doesn't look absurd when it's packaged in this argument that ritualize uh killing somebody because killing to quote my friends and author the other author collean Patrick G about this issue killing is always a messy business killing somebody who desperately wants to stay alive it's always messy course of course um so uh I want to ask you I'm I'm I'm sure you've thought about this but this is a this is kind of an esoteric moral question related to the Future to the inevitable as you know assuming we make it the inevitable future of where all this is headed so I've heard that eventually we're going to be able to grow meat right with nanotechnology whatever bi technology we're going to be able to grow meat in laboratory so we'll be able to grow beef grow chicken grow ve whatever and we're not going to have to do it and the killing part of it uh we it essentially won't be part of the question this is going to be part of the Brave New World that in which we're all headed probably it's going to happen sooner rather than later and uh when I think about this I find myself in a moral can I don't I don't know what to think about it I don't I don't I was just wondering what have you thought about this and do you have any do you have any thoughts about I just be very curious about that well I mean I don't see how it's any different than buying the so the vegan meats that are available in stores like Bo Burgers um if we're growing meat from a cell if we're actually not harming anybody in order to to create it and it's I mean I understand what you're saying with the conundrum and there are vegans that I've talked to who say why would I even buy a boa Burger why would I buy a burger that mimics flesh I don't want to support that at all but the reality is that we've all grown up I mean very few people have grown up outside of carnism like not ever eating animals we've grown up with this it's we've grown up being conditioned to like the way certain types of food products taste well I can tell you my own my own life experience proves it because I love vegan you know sausage and whatever else but my wife who's been a she's from India she's been a vegetarian her whole life she finds the whole idea disgusting yeah that's a perfect example right for the same reason that we don't make faux golden retriever meat um you know we don't we don't sell fake baby brains in stores because nobody would want to eat them real or fake right of course um or vegan versions I should say um but but the reality is that for those of us who grew up in this culture you know the smell of certain types of foods it brings us back to experiences we have learned learned that this taste we have learned to you know we stop eating animals not because we stop liking the way they taste we stop eating animals because we make the connection we stop liking what we're doing by eating them ex no exactly um so was your response to the question about the the the meat grown in the laboratory that it was that it would be similar to eating um soy products not knowing too much about the laboratory process except that it's creating you know some type of you know meat product without actually using an animal um if my concern is reducing suffering and the the disconnect and I believe I believe very strongly and you know partly from the research that I've done partly from my own experience of having eaten animals for so much of my life and having that shift of Consciousness myself and largely from having spoken to so many people over the years that that that for people the real issue for people is harming somebody else it's it's not the texture of the flesh it's not the flavor of the flesh it's the harm they're doing definitely eating animals is so antithetical to our core values that that's what requires the the tremendous disconnect e a soy Burger does not require us to block our awareness and shut down our empathy so I don't think in my opinion it would have the same impact on us consciously for my purposes what I'm really concerned about is the impact it has on other beings in the world and if it if it stops them from being tortured and killed um then I'm I support it and you know I also want to point out that one hope for my work is has been to cultivate greater compassion for people who are still the vast majority of people who are still eating animals and still in the system it's it's easy to get into this Blame Game you know or this it's so easy for vegans to become really angry and say how could you do this especially with people who we feel should quote unquote know better you know you're so compassionate in all these areas of your life and yet you're you know eating somebody's mother because you want her pepperoni on your pizza it's it's so hard for vegans to wrap their brains around it once they've had that shift of Consciousness but but when we can recognize that that good people participate in harmful practices all the time right not because they're bad people but because they haven't stepped out side the system yet to recognize that they even have that choice well thank you very much I'm I'm I'm a I'm a real I'm a real fan of your of your work and I I I see you as a as as a brave Pioneer I I I really have tremendous respect for you and I'm count me as a I'll I'll support you forever well that is um a true honor coming from me so thank you and thank you for all you're doing I mean world uh thank you very [Music] much