Rashid Omar at the Parliament of the World's Religions

from your point of view what would you say do you feel that the main thing religion and and I'm not speaking about in particular Traditions at this point but religion as a whole needs to Grapple with and and what's the main challenge it faces as it tries to kind of Meet the challenge of the 21st century yeah I think that you know it's very clear that um the old secularization thesis which said that religion will die is of course you know um uh being discredited right in our time we are seeing religion coming back in a very forceful kind of way I would say that it's not the religion coming back it's always been there MH um sometimes we use paradigms and perspectives from um you know Western Europe or North America and think that the whole world is exactly the same and the third world religion has always been a very vital Factor um you know of human existence and human life um again if you ask the question um Can religion um you know rise to the challenge indeed it will but it will do so in its own way mhm MH um it's already doing so so um the I think the challenge is for us is how to correctly frame questions in a way which does not privilege MH uh secular modernity or all the you know the 21st century we should all be just uh very humble and say that look religion has many many uh problems it has contributed towards um uh conflict and so on but so too has uh secular modernity and the post Enlightenment it's not being the Panacea to all of our problems and so we come together as uh people of religion people of no faith people of different World Views and ideologies all with our frailties and our weaknesses and join hands to together uh in saying what can we contribute in a modest way towards building um a better world a more peaceful just and sustainable World in which all of us can coexist MH um meaningfully okay if you look 20 years down the line what will be what do you feel is going to be that this element that's going that's going to be very different about the way the religions will will be at that in the in the future is there anything particular that stands out in your mind yes I do think that one of the critical challenges that uh um is facing us all is to what is the an appropriate place for religion MH within um public life um and this is a very you know it's it's it's a critical challenge it's it's much much contested uh in much of uh Muslim societies um there is a kind of um idea that that religion should supersede everything else it should U be hegemonic it should superimpose itself upon uh the state M um you know sometimes it's called Theocratic model yes I think that's not very helpful I I would uh you know advise my my Muslim co-religionist that that's a kind of idolatry of the State uh you know that we do not worship the state uh if you have an Islamic State part of the essence of secularism it's not going to be the panace of all of the problems now that's the one and uh view the other view which comes from uh Western Christianity in particular is that of the strict separation of religion and State uh what is called in the United States this establishment or now in France it's called lism uh you know um secularism and um marginalizing religion um uh you know to the private sphere I think that for me uh you know religion is not going to be taken out of the public Arena we we are not uh schizophrenic yeah I am a Muslim in the mosque I am a Muslim in the University I'm the Muslim in the public life these are the values that shapes my world view and I you know can't take off my shoes at the school and then suddenly become some someone else it's it's not wholesome um so I think we need to find then the an appropriate role for religion in the public life and for me it should be that religion not superimpose itself upon the state but play an active role as part of a broader Civil Society um in being the moral conscience of the society the insurance for a true democracy is how strong the civil and how independent and critical the Civil Society is to balance the power uh of the state right and so for example in in the United States uh currently we have this awful war in Iraq um I was very inspired by the way in which a number of uh religious leaders and institutions um emphatically and categorically said this is an unjust illegal and immoral War MH but they were unable because of that model of Separation yeah to give effect to it on the ground what does it mean on the ground it means that that you tell a committed young person who's either Catholic or Protestant and say to him that you cannot go in this war and kill MH in the name of an illegal un uh you know immoral and unjust War you have to go for conscientious objection MH but why have religious leaders stopped short because they have felt this is not our place MH mhm but then is this is a subtle kind of um Insidious religious legitimation yes separation yeah well I I I feel this is a very interesting point that you brought up because I I very I agree that neither the Theocratic model nor the nor the separation of church and state one of which comes from one you know worldview one of which comes from another can can really can is is what is what we need and I and I feel I it's interesting to hear that you you you speak to your to your Muslim friends about about trying to break down the idea that the theocracy is the way to go and I feel the same way in in the United States I'm trying to break down the barrier that religion should stay out of politics because that's like say morality and morality and ethics at a fundamental level should stay out of should stay out of politics I I can't make I I feel it's important and but I also I also feel because a lot of the protesters and a lot of the peace movement in in the United States did not does not adopt a more complex picture of the issue of War than the issue of religious violence that they kind of removed themselves from from from the political realm because they adopt a purely pacifistic position which to me is not the message ultimately of religion or the message message or or it's not it doesn't deal with the morally ambiguous world that we need to involve themselves with but because they kind of adopt a a reactionary kind of pacifistic position not that you know just just in general then then they kind of remove themselves from the political debate and they I feel like just like you're saying that we have to re-inject ourselves and say no this war is is unjust for these particular reasons but also at that time engage in the we can't take some kind of pure position of pacifism we have to engage in the morally complex situations of of violence and of governing so I feel like if I I feel like in in in the West too often you see them you see the the a lot of the progressive elements of the society too willing to be marginalized whereas you have the idolatry of the Islamic State in the Muslim world you have the idolatry of nationalism and patriotism uh in the in the in the western model because you see you have um you know people are kind of ambivalent they would say on the one hand that you know this war is wrong and and fight against it yeah but I'm praying for the soldiers uhhuh how can you pray for you have to tell the soldiers you cannot go there I see my theology it you know was was developed in the struggle against aparted so I see things much more clearer MH um you know there we had a situation in which um were there the issue of violence young people were were conscripted might young people conscripted into the South African Defense Force to defend an immoral system crime against a partic MH right M and so what what can you do I mean you you you cannot say to you have to say to young people that you cannot go your your Christian witness then yeah is to say that you know even if you're going to imprison me I agree I cannot fight in this war and this unequivocal message did not come through from the Christian Church yeah and I think it's because not because they are ill intentioned because they are trapped within the Theology of what is called Church theology you have three kinds of theologies as we say in South Africa you have state theology which is the Theocratic model you have church theology which when you see injustices and uh in the society you say no I cannot say anything about this because I'm going to be political as tutu was called a politician when you criticize AOC or you have a third model which is prophetic theology which is speaking truth to power counterbalancing because we we cannot get away from dealing with power that's the issue we need to embrace that exactly I feel that we can't we can't embra we can't remove our we are human beings we have the frail We Are Not Angels and so we deal with sin we deal with power but we need to find a way of not deluding ourselves oh you know it's others who you know want to fuse religion and power I am not I am not involved with power because I in the private sphere you're dealing with power you're legitimating power but in a more Insidious way because you're not being honest yeah I I totally I totally agree with that and I think people use the excuse also that religion has so often been a negative force in state politics or they perceive that to to remove themselves from actually dealing and I think that's also you know a complex that we have yes religion has uh been a force for evil but so too has many other ideologist like socialism and and and and communism a few years ago and about every other kind of state we all just you know that's what I'm saying we all need just to be humble and to say that look you know I can contribute my few cents and you come and and but the key thing is that we need to work together and not have arrogance that I you know have more than what you have uh it's a common human project right um and we are frail and we Are Not Angels and we will H and we will stumble right but we we will we will pick each other up and and show compassion and that I think is the way um towards a peaceful just and sustainable World good good um I wanted to ask a few questions about interreligious dialogue and people being rooted in the tradition cuz I think it's an interesting question here um because in our work on the magazine one of the things we begin to notice after a while in the inner faith in the inner religious because we were interviewing people from all different faiths and often Mystics in their own faith and people who are deeply rooted in their own traditions in different ways but one of the things you begin to notice and it's a to completely a generalization so it's not necessarily true but it was true enough to make you think about it which is that sometimes the people who are very deeply rooted in their own tradition in the in the in the depth and really speaking with the spiritual depth that you knew was coming out of a deep appreciation and deep understanding of their own tradition you know a real spiritual weight um C often were also holding on to a regressive political and social context in that tradition they were exclusivist sometimes or they were they could be very kind of antiquated in their in where sometimes the more liberal uh ecumenical elements of the Traditions were much more you appreciated their political and social openness their ecumenical element but they often seem to have lack the depth OFA you know of real spiritual weight within the context of the tradition they often didn't have that and so it was this kind of weird you appreciate in one hand the depth the personal you know the personal you know spiritual you know real real you know passion and and appreciate you appreciated that on the other hand and you appreciated the social and political openness of some but you you we have to be able to fuse those in some ways and so I wanted to ask you about that dilemma that as a problem within the religious dialogue I think youve put your finger on one of the major challenges facing interreligious dialogue and interreligious activists um yeah I think this is this is the most important uh uh issue and what I call leverage for social transformation for religious transformation um if you are not r um in your tradition if you're not authentic uh and you're just a free agent you know moving about and uh um you know not taking care of what are the the key issues in my tradition and being trying to be as faithful as you can um towards it you're not going to resonate with ordinary Believers yeah right um uh so I think that um this is one of the major challenges um what could happen is as well you know you begin in the interreligious dialogue and in the encounter itself you know you get transformed right so you move ahead and you know your congregation or others remain behind so you can move and so often in the interreligious dialogue we say I'm I feel closer to you as a Christian than to my own and I think it's beginning to be realized and so increasingly people are speaking of intra intra religious dialogue dialogue between Muslims themselves dialogue between Christians themselves and that's the tough one and I think that's the measure that's the measure of Tolerance it's to what extent can you tolerate right people within your own tradition MH who interpret the tradition in ways which you find quite offensive MH mhm mhm I mean that's the the litus test a ter yes should we maybe just to start should we tolerate that I what what I don't mean that I know that sounds bad but what does Toleration mean those because it should mean we we tolerate them uhhuh we tolerate their right to express themselves okay but we disagree with their interpretations okay you know this is very important you see because often we make the idea or the the interpretation the issue and forget that this is a human being all right he's created as Christians would say in the image of God because I I don't consider myself a Christian but but I come from a Christian background so so let's take that so the Jerry fwell the pat Robinson of the world you know I I don't I don't disagree with them I don't subscribe to them I you know I understand they have a right to say what they say but at the times but if they but on the more extreme things of what they of what they're saying I don't I I feel it's you know it's an incredibly negative thing and I would I would uh I would I would you know I don't want I don't feel very Toler I don't feel like I obviously I'm not going out there to to suppress them violently but I don't feel very uh my my I don't feel very tolerant of them I I feel like i' i' much rather uh then they they weren't an expression of my religious tradition but how you going to deal with them yeah you know we we never going to find a world in which um such interpret such people don't exist yes right we're never going to find a world like that so they're always going to be with us so then the challenge is yes how do we relate to them yeah right yeah and you've got a number of options yes the one is you know uh ban them uh banish them uh excommunicate them right right is that what the interreligious movement right is that is is it going to support that yeah that you see that's where the crunch comes I mean this wonderful idea of peace and tolerance and so now you put in the spot exactly that's where it becomes an issue what does tolerance mean you know as I say the rber H the road what are you going to do now right and I think that the dialogue means listening to them finding out what are the root causes that produces such a mindset right because once you can understand that you will be able to understand um you know why people are flocking to them MH right and the important thing is then committing ourselves towards transforming things we must diagnose the problem why is it that people flock to them because otherwise we we always going to be sitting back and um and complaining and lamenting oh these guys are taking over the world you know and they're just marginalizing us and see what to respond find out why are they resonating with people you know why maybe one of the reasons yeah maybe they they they they sound more authentic than what we do we just you know are wishy washing and treating the Bible with disrespect in the Quran whereas these people are showing they they they sound like they moral ethic that is rooted in some kind of more profound uh so these are the reasons and then the other thing is that there is indeed a spiritual crisis yes produced by consumerism and by by all of the things and so once we begin to look at the roots of what produces uh this kind of you know um uh you know extreme interpretations of the faith we can then better be able to know what is the path towards peace right right and and and and you know they're always going to exist right but we can then somehow neutralize the impact yes by changing the the hearts and minds and by changing and the culture right exactly by and beginning to address the culture that is giving rise to that kind of because you know one of Jurgens Meyers uh in his book Terror in the mind of God I know you you followed his work one of his interesting points he was very clear is that he he covered all these different fun you know fundamentalist or kind terrorist organizations in different religious traditions and they all were very clear that the their primary argument was with secular modernity and the that that was the response was to that not even to other Traditions necessarily not even to other Traditions but but I I can't help but feel if we could begin to change the culture at a fundamental way to address the kind of religious crisis the spiritual crisis to the ethnical crisis of postmodernity in such a way that that that religious Soul started to come alive within the culture not just within individuals but within the culture that it would that it would address in a much deeper way the issues of of fundamentalism that people were address most certainly