Andrew Cohen Interviews Steve McIntosh (Part 3)

[Music] right I mean as long as we're in time as long as we're finite creatures we're never going to achieve perfection in finality right even if we can imagine a total Utopia on Earth that still wouldn't be final Perfection I think that that well iess I guess it depends on which if it was if it was a a traditional Utopia right the in in the traditional worldview as far as I understand Utopia is a static place where nothing changes so I think that would be it would be possible to to to achieve Utopia within a static worldview but in within an evolutionary worldview where where're where we're part of an an infinite process of becoming you we can never reach perfection in the present moment it's something we're always reaching for that ultimately never attain right now I mean whether we attain whether we transcend the finite completely and enter into communion with the infinite at some higher level that sort of that's a theology kind of Beyond where this book is but but but the idea of perfecting the universe you know carefully described you know and and I do my best to sort of uh uh distinguish this idea from other ideas that may be you know sort of less evolutionary what this leads to is the final chapter of the book which I describe as the mission of evolutionary spirituality and of course this you know the mission of our lives the mission of the finite universe is to experience becoming perfect in time but in terms of being pragmatic and and getting back to the original theme of of spiritual leadership for the developed world I think one of the exciting Promises of evolutionary spirituality is that we can come to understand more you know efficaciously how we can raise Consciousness and when we look at history and see how is it that Consciousness has emerged what's caused Consciousness to evolve and develop throughout the history of humanity we can begin to see that it's really the the the new Octave of beauty truth and goodness you know it's the new ideals of morality right the new truths the new the new reality frame of an emerging new worldview the new new art the new music that in a sense attracts those who are ready to emerge beyond their worldview into a new one right so we see it during the Enlightenment right the the new science of of Galileo and you know dayart and Newton describ the world in an entirely attractive new way that that that actually pulled people's Consciousness from traditionalism into modernism right you know you listen to the music of Mozart or bethoven you know that music is inspired by the emergence of modernism and it did indeed raise Consciousness right I mean you play Mozart your Consciousness is raised I mean there that's been scientifically proven right so likewise in the emergence of postmodernism you know when Dylan sang The Times They are a changing you know I mean he sat behind a million eyes and told them what they saw it was like it raised consciousness it was a when Thomas Payne wrote Common Sense During the Revolution you know American Revolution it raised Consciousness a new kind of Truth a powerful Truth for the age so we begin to understand through this kind of spiritual frame that that these forms of perfection these these this light of spirit actually acts as a has a gravity on Consciousness that it can evolve Consciousness when properly applied to the needs of the Consciousness that you're trying to serve this can kind of act as a new form of social medicine right just like the enlighten brought about scientific medicine which improved The Human Condition immensely I think in this second Enlightenment in the emergence of The evolutionary worldview the Beautiful the true and the good will be seen as a new kind of medicine that can heal the wounds of History by raising Consciousness in all the places that it's stuck and by helping us achieve a new level of solidarity and you know spiritual uh um Brotherhood and Sisterhood well how that's a very that's a very inspiring vision Steve well I mean you know whether I can pull it off or not I mean I guess we'll we'll have to see but um I think that obviously this is bigger than all of us and um this evolutionary perspective does bring new truth and new Beauty and new goodness and specifically about what these values are in themselves right I mean Whitehead Alfred North Whitehead right one of the founders of integral philosophy and indeed one of the early uh uh adopters of this evolutionary perspective defined Evolution as an increase in the ability to experience what is intrinsically valuable in other words it's it's a kind of a Consciousness Centric definition of evolution which says evolution is all about our deepening discovery of intrinsic value which is about our deepening discovery of spirit which is about perfection entering into this realm of time before we finish for our last question um could you really could you go into a little more detail about how in in your thesis how the the the emerging insight into the into the nature and significance of beauty truth and goodness can help Humanity can help human beings uh see and understand how we can affect the world the material world the world that we've that we live in together for the better because I think one of the things that's very interesting about about the book you're writing and I think the goal of the book is that there's a is a very tangible relationship between spiritual insight as being uh a a catalyst for for not only inspiring us but helping us to see very directly how we can improve the world so could you be could you be very specific in making that connection between how these extraordinary insights will be a source of inspir will be a source of inspiration will help human beings to see how they can uh affect the world for the better sure thanks for asking me that excellent question sure um it's worth excuse me I'm sorry interrupt you the reason I'm asking you this question right sorry for that is is because uh most of the time or too often uh spiritual experience and spiritual Insight often occurs within its own context it seems it seems to occur in an in a sub in a subjective context that exists uh somehow not directly related to the world itself right it's it's it's it's a separate metaphysical context for the individual and how how that experience is directly supposed to affect the world you know tends to be rather ambiguous that's why I'm very inspired by and compelled by your thesis because because you're making a very specific connection between this very profound spiritual insight and affecting the world directly sure yeah one of the things that Evolution that the spiritual teachings of evolution as we're coming to understand them one of the things that really makes clear is that all Evolution right from The Big Bang onward are forms of spiritual growth and if we come to understand that that you know that that the evolution of Consciousness is is this this amazing new insight even though it's been achieved prior to the emergence of evolutionary spirituality evolutionary spirituality opens up an entire new domain of understanding of what it means to say that Consciousness evolves and what the implications of that are and so if we then look at the world and this world of you know trouble and suffering and global warming and all the challenges that we face in the 21st century and we come to see that that practically every problem we can identify any problem can be understood at least partially as a problem of Consciousness if we could raise or change the Consciousness is either creating these problems or failing to prevent them then we'd have a new method for making the world a better place in an extremely powerful uh and direct way indeed yeah so so one of the things The evolutionary spirituality does is it can conects the personal experience of spirit that you can have while meditating or you know in nature or any other context for spiritual experience with the evolution of Consciousness that can not only improve our own spiritual position in the world but can make us a lot more powerful in making the world a better place because once we understand the evolution of Consciousness better for ourselves then that empowers us with the ability to raise Consciousness non- coercively and more effectively in all the places where the raising of Consciousness would solve a major problem so from a pragmatic standpoint um one of the things that more effective forms of spiritual leadership can do is create a kind of social solidarity in the United States that it could overcome much of the polarity that currently prevents the formation of political will so if you have a a problem like climate change and you have a a stagnant electorate that is polarized in a way that can't really effectively address this this problem then the the problem is not whether we should you know put a gasoline tax or you know some kind of a carbon sequestering I mean all those technoeconomic Solutions are worth talking about but none of them are going to get off the ground unless there's a political will that's going to give the politicians and the business people permission to try to start addressing those problems so the evolution of Consciousness gets extremely practical and even political really fast when we understand that every problem is a problem of consciousness and um this makes the the idea of discovering um a new method of evolving Consciousness a new way of gently persuading people to improve their definition of of uh you know what's in their self-interest or what the good life is or what their duties are or what really is going to make them happy if we can raise Consciousness along those lines then we're going to see spectacularly tangible results in the physical world well that is a very exciting very intriguing possibility I know we're all in our own ways working as hard as we can for that to to that to happen you know it feels it feels inwardly very close outwardly it feels very far away but I know that we're we're we're all in we're all deeply working very hard for that so thank you very much Steve it's been a pleasure and a delight uh uh to speak to you today and I want I want to follow this project very closely and I look forward to having another conversation with you when you're nearing the completion of your of your book because I'm I'm sure I'm sure you're going to be presenting these ideas in a very different way at that time well obviously the the your ability to describe the book at the beginning of starting to write it and your ability to describe it once youve got it in a bag or a big difference so I hope to improve and make more clear um some of the exciting insights that are not just mine but that are really part of the emerging evolutionary perspective alog together and and it's worth saying here at the end Andrew that I really am standing on your shoulders that your contributions to evolutionary spirituality are in a sense prerequisite as a jumping off place for where I'm going I mean you know there there are very few of us who are being able to authentically understand and express and teach this new evolutionary form of understanding and you're one of the few and so um it's a great privilege to be your colleague and to work together with you side by side in this important project thank you very much Steve so much love to you and I look forward to speaking to you again very soon looking forward to it also [Music]