Sovereign Self January 28th 2024

so as usual we're going to dive into a very paradoxical question The Pursuit Of The Awakening to enlightened awareness the pursuit of Oneness The Pursuit Of The Awakening to Absolute non-duality The Awakening to the Oneness that's called God Consciousness or we we call it the ultimate Singularity that exists in reality when we try and investigate its nature we always have we always end up studying paradoxes or what looking at elements of looking at truth from different perspectives looking at one truth that looks like opposites so I want wanted to explore the Paradox of spiritual enlightenment as it affects the the sense of individuality the ey sense and the answer is very paradoxical indeed so the traditional call to spiritual enlightenment the Mythic call to spiritual enlightenment the call of the greatest realizers throughout history has been to to transcend the small self let go of to let go of attachment to the small self to our personal identity and die to it unconditionally in that context we awaken to What's called the true self or the absolute self or the non- Dual ground of our own being and it's said that to attain this this flip of identity from small self to Big self from ego to God God we have to let go of our conscious and unconscious attachment and identification with the our egoic Identity or the small self uh and in order to do that we told and this is something that I often teach myself is that we need to surrender our attachment excuse me we need to surrender our attachment to our egoic identity to our small self and our small self is made up of a long story that uh it's all about the personal self and that story tends to be what we think about all the time when we tend to be very preoccupied with fascinated with it's fascinated with It's usually the cause of enormous suffering and anxiety and insecurity and fear the unenlightened life is lived in relationship to this story about the person personal self and the personal ego the story has lived inside the privacy of our own minds and it's as some people have called it a life of quiet desperation for most people and the great realizers who transcend this conscious and unconscious preoccupation and Fascination and addiction to the story of the small self they tell us that when when we wake up from this addiction of this Fascination or preoccupation with the story of the small self when we're freed from being fascinated with the story of the small self and wake up to the liberating truth liberating transcendental reality of the big self we discover that the big self has no story because the big self it doesn't exist in time and history the big self doesn't exist in time that's why it's not part of any particular story and anybody and everybody who makes the switch in Consciousness with the switch in conscious identification whether it happens for a brief period of a few seconds or a few minutes or it happens for countless hours days weeks months or even a lifetime it's a shift from a small perspective to a big perspective from uh an experience of fear and self- preoccupation to ecstasy and exhilaration no exaggeration there so the small self the ego is very identified with its own existence is very attached to its own self-existence and is very very afraid of letting go of its sense of control over the vehicle the body mind and personality Som s is very afraid of losing control is afraid of not being as important as it thinks it is because of course when we we wake up to the big self the true self we realize that the ego never was who we really were in the first place and was not half as important as we thought it was and we even discovered that at a certain point our egoic identity in relationship to this extraordinary Awakening to the big self is ultimately irrelevant it's a minor part of a very big story not half as important as it likes to think it is so so for the spiritual Seekers who Aspire for Spiritual Liberation and Enlightenment when they when we begin seeking on the on the path and begin to practice meditation and spend time with other people who have access to awakened Consciousness you can sometimes experience fear fear of ego death fear of the death of of the small self and the great realizers spiritual teachers tell us that if we want to be if we want to awaken to Enlighten awareness if we want to be free we need to submit or Surrender our attachment to the small self to the Fier and abs of the small cell and we're constantly told and this is what I'm constantly telling my own students is to let go of the ego Let It Go relinquish your attachment to the ego Let It Go Let It Fly Away Let it disappear let it vanish and most of us are very very experienced because we're so identified with the small self we experienced Terror and existential insecurity and tremendous angst angst when we contemplate the necessity of transcending the small stuff of letting go of our attachment to it so that's why the this notion of spiritual surrender is so absolutely terrifying for the small self now the point is when you for those people who actually are lucky enough to let go of the small cell for a significant period of time and experience the glory of God experience the spiritual awakening which we experience the glory of God the glory of the Awakening to that transcendental Singularity that sets us free we are so grateful we come we fall on our literal metaphysical needes and gratitude and joy and and ecstasy because we have surrendered our conscious and unconscious attachment to the small self and we realize through surrendering that attachment we find the source of true happiness transcendental happiness happiness that's directly related to Awakening to the true self to the big self sub Brahman to the god principle to the absolute Singularity that the god principle is and Awakening to that and that alone is gives us access access to the highest form of Happiness that's possible to experience so when you awaken to God Consciousness surrender is not something to be afraid of surrender something to be celebrated the surrendered self is the liberated self the unsurrendered self is the unliberated self so to the true self surrender sounds like Bliss and joy and inner freedom to the ego surrender sounds like sounds terrifying and it also sounds like something to the to the modern and postmodern self sounds like something that only a fool would do because a big part of the modern and postmodern identity is a it's the whole notion of sovereign self or a sovereign ego which means an independent ferociously independent self Fally independent ego which means some it goes along the lines of uh The Sovereign self in its independence feels that I think for myself I have become my own person I have achieved sovereignty and radical independence of mind and soul and spirit nobody tells me what to do I will I I'm the master of my own destiny even though very few people are the master of their own Destinies the modern and the postmodern self or ego likes to think that it's the master of its own destiny even though it's not and for the modern for the modern and postmodern self this idea of existential Independence Independence unique Independence in the form of our independent personality our independent ego our independent small selfness self nature is a very big theme is a very big uh is is is a cultural level this is there's is a shared conviction that this is what it means to be a strong person if you if you have if you if you're a sovereign if you're truly independent in Your Capacity to think and to understand and to make sense out of life if you're not simply a carbon copy of someone else's thinking carbon copy of someone else's mind but you actually become your own person a unique individual a sovereign Soul that's that's the goal and so to the modern and postmodern nature of what it means to be a sovereign self or Sovereign Soul the whole idea of ego death and ego surrender that spiritually aspiring people speak about sounds like a Fool's game why they think why would anybody want to give up their sovereignty their unique individuality in order to find God that sounds like a crazy idea and um so in in response to this this way of thinking I just want to say that I believe it's important to become sovereign in our unique individuality but I think very people do because Mo very few most of us are not even thinking our own thoughts most of us are thinking other people's thoughts because very few people have the courage or the philosophical aspirations to kind of think deeply for themselves about just about anything most of most of our ideas and our beliefs and our convictions I'm making a broad general statement here but it tends to be true a lot of the times most of our beliefs and opinions ideas and convictions have been absorbed from the world around us from our culture from our friends from our education from our [Music] family so most people's the way most of us think about life has not been something that has been worked out by us individually within the context of our own minds but it's been it's been appropriated most most people's thinking has been has been culturally appropriated so my point is that there are very few Sovereign individuals anyway most of us are sleepwalking most of the time in other people's ideas and other people's thinking that we've simply unconsciously appropriated over the period of a lifetime so while the idea to become a sovereign soul is uh laudable and maybe even heroic I think very few people people can actually claim to be truly Sovereign Souls at least that's my opinion about it but the issue at hand that I wanted to focus on here is that um while I believe well I believe if we're going to become liberated human beings we need to be able to cultivate autonomy as an expression of that Liberation to me being liberated and being autonomous or Sovereign ends up being the same thing so so while our unconscious identification and attachment with the fears and desires of the small self is inherently an obstacle to the profound possibility of spiritual Liberation at the same time paradoxically we need to be able to cultivate a very strong individual autonomous self in order to be able to navigate a lot of the confusion the like life throws at us so becoming a sovereign self a sovereign individual and autonomously thinking unique individual is a big part of what the spiritual path is all about at the same time we need to be able to paradoxically and in a very contrarian way we need to be able to surrender our attachment to our need to see ourselves as being Sovereign at the same time which sounds like a total contradiction and it is it's part of the Paradox of being on a spiritual path so while we on one hand if we want to be spiritually enlightened awakened to enlightened awareness in the way that people like the the Buddha the Buddha did in the great rahar she did the great SRI Orinda did in others if we want to awaken to light and awareness to Brahman Consciousness the god Consciousness to the absolute realization of the transcendental reality our conscious and unconscious identif ification and attachment to the small self needs to be transcended and relinquished unconditionally absolutely totally and completely if we're to succeed in reaching the Yonder Shore that the Buddha was speaking about and at the same time paradoxically I don't think we're going to be able to achieve such a radically profound goal like that unless we are truly an autonomous individual unless we have a strong Sovereign self to work with here because letting go of the mind and letting go of the unconscious attachment to the small self is a heroic Act is a heroic process most people most people who try actually fail so the fact that so people actually succeed shows what a difficult and daunting task the pursuit of Enlightenment The Pursuit Of The Awakening to enlightened awareness actually is so I think that history would prove that the demonstrate that not only does our spiritual aspiration need to be strong and intense and passionate but this the self it's intending to liberate itself needs to be a strong and Sovereign autonomous self when The Bu the Buddha left his his kingdom he left his family behind against the wishes of his father so he he had an very Sovereign and autonomous aspect Liberation for Liberation that enabled him to transcend the cultural imperatives that would have made it difficult for him to to leave the K Kingdom behind him in pursuit of Enlightenment so we need to be we need to be Sovereign souls in order to achieve enlightenment and paradoxically we need to be able to let go of our attachment our conscious and unconscious attachment to the fears and desires of the small self if we're going to be able to succeed in a way can you turn line awareness so it's quite a conundrum we've got here it's quite a conundrum so in the on the path to radical Enlightenment along the path on the way home to Liberation and to Salvation a moment comes when it'll become clear to us if we're going to succeed we've got to let go of everything we think and everything we believe and everything we're sure of to take a leap to take a radical leap which is Leap into the unknown from knowing to not knowing from something to nothing and that kind of leap the E the ego and even The Sovereign ego does not like to take that leap the eagle likes to know what's going on likees to know what it's doing likes to know where where it's going and where it's going to be like when it gets there but to take this leap from Sovereign soul to Enlighten self we have to be able to take a leap beyond the Mind beyond the known beyond the Fier and desires of the small self which means we have to be willing to surrender our minds and our ego story absolutely unconditionally radically completely once and for all and forever that has to happen even for a few seconds you have to be willing not not to have any idea what what what what the next step is except it's a leap of faith and any realizer will will know exactly what I'm talking about but all great realizers have had to take a leap of faith at one point from the known to the unknown from the small self to the big self that includes all of our attach attachment and identification with being a sovereign soul so following from what I've been saying that of course I it is necessary to be reasonably Sovereign and autonomous and how to have a strong ego in a positive sense of what that means to get to this point but at this certain point there needs to be a leap of faith leap that'll take us Way Beyond the mind and Way Beyond the known and at that moment you have to be able to relinquish all all attachment to the small self including our identification with sovereignty and autonomy and Independence it's all got to go down the drain that's the point where we say not my will but thy will be done that's to LEAP from nothing to something there's a moment of radical unknowing that needs to be embraced which is utterly absolutely terrifying to the small self I don't care who you are so the Paradox between the need to surrender unconditionally in the significance of cultivating sovereignty is what I wanted to kind of put on the table on this talk today because it's very paradoxical so to repeat that it's important that we cultivate our capacity for sovereignty Independence they were able to think clearly for ourselves about life and about reality something we learn how to do that we can send on our own two feet as we express ourselves and as we as we express ourselves but we also have to know how to let go without excuses unconditionally radically absolutely incompletely which means to surrender and to submit and there's a story I often tell when I'm teaching which is that um when I was I'm 68 now I think I can't remember exactly I think I'm 68 and um I started this I started seeking when I was 22 and I was very determined from that age on that I was going to succeed in awaking to Enlighten awareness I didn't know how it was going to happen I didn't know how I was going to get there but I knew I would succeed one day so when I was 31 I met my Guru I spent three weeks with him at his house in L now every day and after a few days I was sitting along with him in his room he was sitting on his bed and I was sitting on a chair next to the bed we were we were not talking there was nobody else there and then at a certain point I heard I heard somebody say something and the words I heard were I'm ready to surrender but I don't know how master I'm ready to surrender but I don't know how and then after I heard the words I realized it had come from from me but I didn't realize that I'd said them because there the this this the words are ready to surrender but I don't know how they come from my ego came from my true self so it didn't even feel like me who'd said it but that was an expression of the fact that I was ready to surrender I was ready to let go unconditionally radically absolutely and completely which as result of my guru's grace did happen I don't know how it happened because in the end we don't really know how these things happen and we can think we understand them but in the end the The Awakening of Consciousness is more of a miracle than it is anything else it's like we become overwhelmed and overtaken by the presence of a of a miracle that sweeps us off our feet and in that context we find out that surrender is not something that we can do anyway you can't really surrender it's not an act of will so how does it happen I don't really know in the end I in the end my conclusion is that um at a certain point we we' become so overwhelmed by the glory of God the glory of the absolute that we we are overwhelmed by the by the goodness truth and beauty of that Glory we just simply can't resist it anymore because it's so ecstatically profound that we just submit because we don't have a choice because it's too good it's too beautiful it's too overwhelming it's too ecstatically profound so we have no choice to but to let go because we can't resist it's too positive positivity just actually crushes our ego at least temporarily crushes it to bits and we are left at least temporarily in in a state of Eagle is Wonder the glory of it all so these kinds of things can happen and they do happen if we are sincere enough and are committed enough to the Long Haul and I think after that we continue on a life of spiritual practice that really works when it when when spiritual practi is informed by by Grace when spiritual practice is informed by Grace then we will alternatively be working on our capacity to to become more autonomous more independent in our thinking always every day more autonomous independent in our thinking because it's it's hard to learn how to think for oneself and it's something we have to keep working on all the time there's no such thing as a certain kind of intellectual Clarity that just remains steady it's something that we have to work out all the time philosophical Clarity metaphysical Clarity ethical clarity are you paying attention to how clearly you're thinking about anything are you thinking for yourself about anything are you sayane are you crazy do you have any idea what the answer is but learning how to think clearly and autonomously independently freely and radically which means thinking deeply questioning out learning how to question all everything every day without losing our without losing our balance intellectually philosophically metaphysically and morally requires a lot of practice every day we have to work at this which means we have to spend a lot of time realizing how little we actually know and how little we actually do understand while not losing our balance not while not losing our confidence and another Paradox is is the more we let go of the Mind the more we have trained ourselves to be able to learn how to let go of the Mind the more the Mind becomes available to us as a tool we become more skilled at being able to use the Mind as a fine instrument and paradoxically as I've been saying this is a result of learning how to let go of the Mind more we can let go of it the more it become can can be a useful tool the question is how to use the mind without being trapped in it and lost in it unconsciously and a lot of people appear to be very good thinkers but if you start listening more closely you realize that they might be good thinkers on one hand but all of their good thinking is trapped in the swamp of the Mind from the very beginning so while it may be complex thinking it won't be thinking that's based upon any kind of ground of liberated Consciousness in any Enlightenment context that's the only thing we're actually interested in is is a mind that's freed from the from the swamp of its own materiality own density so so yeah and the other half of of Life of spiritual practices the Art and Science the mystical metaphysical Art and Science of submission and surrender which means letting go which we also need to which which also when it's infused with Grace is something that we need to be able to practice consciously and unconsciously every day we have to learn how to be very skillful and the are insights of Letting Go which means surrendering our egos Insanity the fears and desires of the small self again and again every day as as many times as we need to so so mature spiritual practice in the way that I'm speaking about it now is the kind of a dance between the practice of autonomy the practice of sovereignty and the practice of submission and the practice of surrender as a kind of paradoxical dance that if we're spiritually developed we'll learn how to be masterful in this this kind of paradoxical dance between knowing and not knowing and someone who's very skilled spiritually skilled and mature at this capacity of knowing and not knowing will seem out outwardly to be very balanced and steady and very grounded in themselves they will appear like a rock and this will because the because there'll be this deep profound integration of these different dimensions of the cell which only comes from spiritual work spir de deep spiritual work deep spiritual practice and and profound Letting Go profound surrender and they're both very hard to be to be frank most people don't have the are not inspired enough and don't have the the spiritual will to do the kind of spiritual work that's necessary you become sovereign the level of the Mind love of the soul and most people are not spiritually inspired enough to be able to let go surrender in all the ways that are necessary to truly transcend the mind it's a big deal but anybody who wants to do these things can do them if you understand what needs to be done and you understand how to do it it's it's all doable but it's a matter of cultivating the longing and the spiritual will to do whatever you need to do to succeed to yeah to to come out the other end and Enlighten Sovereign soul that sounds good that's what I want well both of these things need to be done it's important to understand how they're not separate really the other point I wanted to make in this talk is that the true self we then remember in the enlightenment context The Awakening to the true self is the goal of course that your true self the true self is already unconditionally absolutely Sovereign when the very the true self doesn't need to become sovereign its nature is Sovereign the true self is absolutely Sovereign that's its nature so I hope I hope a lot of you can appreciate the subtlety and the complexity in this process that I'm trying to share because on one hand this is all very simple very straightforward and on the other hand it's very complex and very subtle and very paradoxical and one of the one of the issues I wanted to address in this talk is is that that the some of the Enlightenment gurus and teachers all they stress is the need to surrender the mind and ego but don't don't emphasize enough the need to become sovereign and autonomous in our in our in our self nature and a lot of the modern and postmodern thinkers over in my opinion overstress the need to cultivate sovereignty and and and uh autonomy and don't give enough value and significance to the need to cultivate a capacity to let go of the mind without conditions and I I believe we need to we need to as my this whole talk has been trying to make the point that we need to be able to do both at a level of Mastery we need to attain level of mastery between both of these spiritual and metaphysical and cognitive capacities if we're going to succeed in a way that is dramatic and I think if we're serious about this we might as well seeed succeed in a way that's dramatic meaningful purposeful radical and absolute right otherwise why I waste time trying even trying there's no point in entering onto the spiritual path unless we're going to take it all the way all the way home I think so it's good to take some time to think about the necessity of surrendering the Mind surrendering the ego unconditionally radically absolutely and completely if we want to awaken to Enlighten awareness at the same time it's very important to understand that we need to learn how to think independently for ourselves deeply and authentically if we're going to be free human beings and don't underestimate we should none of us should ever under underestimate how difficult it is to think deeply for ourselves about anything and it's life is very confusing The Human Experience is very confusing the learning how to cultivate clear and fine discrimination is not easy it's a rare person cult that has the capacity to have to attain to find a rare and fine degree of discrimination these things need to be worked on passionately and diligently put into practice every day and I think that this is what I've just been describing in this talk is what I think modern spiritual practice is all about or should re be all about if we want to awaken to Enlighten awareness in a meaningful way look if success in these two domains actually looks good very good I think I did it what I intended to do let's sit maybe for a couple of minutes and then I'll try to take your questions so in in evolutionary Enlightenment um I've been I've been teaching for a long time evolutionary L that says which is what I believe that the the that the metapos of Awakened awareness in the context of evolutionary Enlightenment is one in where we are always grounded in a position that's embracing the Paradox of not knowing on one hand and wanting to know on the other so that's the kind of metapos of this teaching that if we develop in this context we're going to know how to be grounded and not already knowing all the time not already knowing I know know that I do not already know I know that I do not already know so we're coming from a place of being grounded in in this metapos of I know that I do not already know which is not just a thought there an actual metapos that you can feel emotionally which opens up Infinite Space and absolute vulnerability Infinite Space and absolute vulnerability appears when you know when you know that you don't already know in every moment I know that I don't already already know and then the pursuit of clarity autonomy and sovereignty is the but I want to know it's wanting to know is the open innocent awakened curiosity and interest uncorrupted curiosity and awakened interest in understanding what's real so I know that I do not already know and I want to know so wanting to know wanting to understand wanting to see clearly it's the pursuit of autonomy and sovereignty I'm paying attention because I want to know I want to understand I want to see clearly for myself I want to know what the truth is for myself so not already knowing and wanting to know is the metapos of the teaching of evolutionary Enlightenment if we put these teachings into practice earnestly sincerely radically and absolutely as if our life depended on it which it does spiritually by the way then you'll do what you need to do which is come from a place of not already knowing I know that I do not already know and I want to know that's the metapos I know I do not already know and I want to know and what's interesting about this metapos is when I'm saying I know that I do not already know it means in spite of everything I may have experienced in the last six 68 years of of my life 68 years of lived Human Experience in spite of all that lived human lived human years of experience I I still realize that in spite of that I know that I do not already know which means part of my cognition and focus Consciousness is not attached to or entrapped in my the history of my experience part of me is standing free from all of my history and every moment that's what that means so I know that I don't already know but I want to know I want to understand I want to I want to have a clear understanding of the nature of reality so therefore I want to know I'm paying attention and because I know that I don't already know there's in room to find out what's actually going on most people are so arrogant because they're not paying it because they're not paying attention because they consciously and unconsciously are convinced that they already know so anybody who's consciously or unconsciously convinced that they already know it's not paying attention why do you have to pay attention if you already know something this is the arrogance of the already knowing ego which is very common so the already knowing ego doesn't pay attention that's why it doesn't learn very much doesn't change becomes very stubborn and arrogant and usually feels Superior to everybody else so they're not already knowing makes it possible to want to know see how beautifully it works it's like poetry The Poetry of the Perfection of enlightened awareness so the not already knowing makes it possible to be in a position to want to know and this is a very spiritually healthy spiritually vibrant spiritually pure spiritually potent state of consciousness a very uh it's a relationship to reality that has a lot of Integrity a lot of spiritual inte spiritual Integrity in it you want to ask yourself is there spiritual Integrity metaphysical Integrity philosophical Integrity ethical Integrity in the way that you think well I didn't know that Integrity had anything to do with thinking all a certain it does but the everything that I'm sharing with you here today is is what we need to be needs to be worked on it's not something that happens overnight this is a this is a big ENT it's a big enchilada it's it's a big it's a big deal it's not easy but it's all doable it's not a snap of the fingers okay very good let's wait a couple of minutes and then we can continue on okay if there's any questions i' be happy to try and answer them and if there no questions that's still that's also nice because then we get to sit in quiet and silence together in the questionless state which is the best so if you have any questions please write them in the chat window that you find at the bottom of the zoom screen and there is a first question remark from Ananda she is saying it seems that in the blessings of the contradictions in life and where life doesn't match our expectations that we get the biggest opportunity to be in the not knowing and wanting to know and to be in that state of hands in the air Earnest inquiry very true well said well said amen to that like yeah re please uh write your question we are taking written question here in this format you can just write it in the chat window Andrew I want to take that just a little further like um you know that people who think they know everything aren't interested in t tend to not be so interested in like continuing to grow because they think okay and that's right then they're just trying to protect what they have that's right and so the disruption helps us to I don't know I think it's a position like there's a position of like I live to evolve I live to grow even if it's not the biggest Evolution and there's a position of I live to protect and maintain my achievements those are two very different positions and one leads to not knowing like and being open and one leads to being closed even if we once were open that's right that's all that's right and um I've had the experience in my life life many times of seeing some people who were at one time in their life very open very vulnerable very much earnest and interested in knowing what they did not already know and later on becoming very Clos minded and fixed not available anymore for that which is new yeah it's kind of tragic what happens to a lot of people as they get older yes of course so that's like so the so like that's why I always throw myself into Paradox and why I love to do it because it keeps me always thinking and figuring out more if I wasn't always throwing myself into contradiction I would be stuck on that level probably I don't have any other question right now Andrew okay then we can just sit together for a couple minutes and then we can finish early we can abide in the questionless state happily I just got the one from Fred oh we were just going to go into the question with state okay let's see what had to say it seems that you have to form a kind of central framework in which you can express which you feel you know and find worthwhile to express it is also gives a Clarity on what you do not know very well said Fred very well said true we have to remember if we all this this this this miraculous Paradox that I'm speaking about between between um not already knowing and wanting to know or radical autonomy and radical surrender if we can hold this position we will be expressing a spiritual vitality it's a Vitality that's spiritual at a spirit spir that's that will feel vibrating at an energetic level and also intellectually and emotionally we will be expressing a Radiance holding this metaphysical balance will make it possible for us to express the kind of Radiance that being more closed makes very difficult yeah I I found your your uh kind of you're reading really uh let's say clear and helpful uh because kind of real sovereignty and to really stand for what you think uh really do ask a lot of work indeed and so and it seems to be also an ongoing process absolutely in in a sentence you also have to deal with that a loness in your thinking very good very good Fred absolutely true we have we have to stay on our we have to stay on the raz's edge every day and so what I found was was that to be in connection with people likeminded that are also really wanting to know is in a certain sense kind of the bridge that that creates this this uh well staying human with with hum and doing your own inquiry well when when the Budd when the Buddha was asked the question is association with like-minded people a part of the Holy life the Buddha's response was association with like-minded people is the whole of the Holy life so yeah I think I think in alignment with what you're saying that um spiritually people that are more spiritually enlightened are very sensitive to whether the other has is is expressing ego surrender in conscious and unconscious ways in Gross and subtle ways in their behavior and also they're also aware that uh more spiritually enlighting people are more sensitive to the to how how attached or embedded the the Persona is in the mind or not so more spiritually Enlighten person will become will be more sensitive to the fact that someone's Persona is not so embedded not so trapped in unconsciously in the mind and therefore when with with spir with people that are more spiritually enlightened more spiritually educated and doing more spiritual have more spiritual commitment it's possible to engage at a engage with the mind in a place in a place of inner much more creativity and inner freedom and when that get done on a collective level that's kind of the greatest pleasure that there is but it's not easy Fred no yeah but in the sense there is also I feel there is this inner that you say drun uh there there's an inner urgency to continue that search because you feel you're onto to something absolutely very nice so when I look at your teaching and for example if when I'm speaking of framework I feel that kind of a sentence like evolutionary uh what was your uh Enlightenment was a kind of framework because that is something you can come back to all the time which keeps fresh and from there you in a sense sense you build on and in a sense sense the building is never finished we're work in progress till till the end of time well I in my thinking Fred we're all works in progress until the whole universe becomes turns to turns to until all when when all matter in the universe turns to light up until that point we're all works in progress okay that's not very soon not very soon I would love to ask you about kind of the the idea kind of of the kind of the Paradox also in Buddhism that the Buddha speaks of anatman and in a certain sense the one who becomes enlightened and so there is this duality in that there's a being that you can see and who talks who is enlightened and it's in a sent sense it radiates out so it's doesn't have to say that but it there is there's a because of it is felt that there is a kind of an emptiness there there is no fixedness that means of ego yeah so there so there the ego has gone but I feel the word self didn't go I agree with you I agree with you because in C in certain sense that's what I'm in kind I'm not struggling I'm playing with that idea that kind of the the the whole universe could be seen as a self that organizes itself and uh always evolves in a certain sense that's the directivity of it but that's I I love that there's the same thing with with the with the person who is also let's say and that's also what I feel when you recognize whether there's ego involved or not if a person really speaks from I would say hisself which in my eyes is an emerging property so you can never GR asit but it's the it's the intelligence that is let's say active the mind of the Buddha yeah so so then uh but what I would love to say ask was um yeah so you can say that uh the true understanding of anma means that the true self is always embedded in something that is much bigger and speaks with a kind of uh amazement wonder and so so it it's always adding to the whole very nice fed you're doing fantastic tonight you got to take over my job it's wonderful that you do your job thank you Fred much live thank you is there anything else before we finish everybody no I think we're good thank you everyone thank you very much I