Spiritual Awakening: Jon Eden Khan and Daniela Bomatter in conversation

hi everybody very warm welcome to all of you for this a little bit different by which we teaching today in manifest Nana and first and foremost a very warm welcome to you John thank you for joining us today so today is a little bit different and with traveling and uh therefore John and I will have a conversation today about Spiritual Awakening and I'm looking very much forward to it johon and I know each other for quite a few years not closely but he is one of these people where I feel like even though we don't know each other so closely there is a deep Soul connection and a a connection in our spiritual longing and and in a interesting way uh I always feel like a Brotherhood in in uh how we live our spirituality so I'm very much looking forward to our conversation today John but before we start as always a little bit of uh how we do this today we will go for 90 minutes so JN and I will probably talk for an hour and then we will open up for questions and as always in our bi-weekly you can write the questions in the chat box of the zoom window and then either Vincent or I will read them out loud Vincent is our host today thank you Vincent and uh and then we can answer the questions and also open your microphones and secondly as always I find it uh very helpful if everybody can turn on their cameras there is another a strong reason to not do that just because it's nice to see who is here who we are sitting with and uh yeah that's it from my side already so welcome John let's just Dive In And Men you want a spotlight John oops but anyway John if you uh could probably say a few words about your back ground and where you are coming from where you are at now what you're doing uh because some people probably know you and others don't and then I would like to start with a question and and would actually ask you to probably Define for all of us what you your understanding is of radical Awakening versus evolutionary Awakening because I know that this is a distinction that you are making making and I feel very compelled to talk about this distinction because uh we in Manifesto have a similar distinction and it's probably interesting to find out where the where the synergies are and where potential differences are and what we can learn from each other beautiful thank you can everyone hear me okay give me give me a thumbs up if you can hear me well yeah oh good thank you uh yeah Daniela it's a pleasure to be here uh with all of you it's a pleasure to be invited by you um I saw you have your cat there that you're looking after I just want to acknowledge my I have my four-year-old son with me in the background watching watching some cartoons right now I think he's going to be fine with that but if at some point in the conversation he needs me to switch a channel for him or something just letting you know totally fine dealing with that so yeah um I'm yeah I feel really grateful to be here with you all um I'm a big yeah I'm a big fan of of Andrew's work I'm a someone who I really appreciate you and what you stand for Daniela um to speak a bit about the background that I come out of um yeah so I've I've been someone who's had a passion to study and practice the most powerful approaches to transformation and Awakening that I could get close to in the course of my journey and in the course of My Life um I've I'm someone who's had a a deep deep passion to break through to what is most true and to then do my best to live from that place and I'm someone who probably like you has found themselves in a world world where there's so much Beauty and there's also so much I find profoundly heartbreaking and um I feel like my drive to awaken and to establish an anchor of my life in that which is most true to then participate rightly in whatever this thing is you know was really fueled by feeling devastated and heartbroken by the world I found myself in and the way we human beings are with each other and with ourselves and with the Earth and so on so yeah my path has taken me through various kind of modes of practice and teachings and so on I I guess the ones that I've have had the biggest impact on me are the transan teachings that started off with theosophy and people like Helena blatsky Alice Bailey um one of my teachers Bruce lion uh then also Tibetan Buddhism and Zen um have had have been a place that have been very very dear to my home and Wilbur for instance Wilbur's work around uh integral integral Theory which I feel for instance The evolutionary Enlightenment work is really um I I feel there's a definite connection there and yeah and then there's been a load of work that I've done around how to just really safely comfortably truly a lively being a being a body and you know being a body that feels vital and most of the time not run by my traumas and you know um able to be vulnerable and attuned and present with the Earth so these are areas that I've hung out most and I'm also someone where I've had a an unconventional path in certain ways I feel like I've been given the privilege to experience a large spectrum of The Human Experience um from you know I had a reasonably privileged upbringing through to five years of homelessness and drug addiction in my late teens and early 20s through to working with projects dedicated to social transformation on the basis of Spiritual Awakening through to now running um you know I run a international spiritual Community called avatara uh which is dedicated to the kind of uh spirituality and practice that we're going to talk about today plus I have initiated a the beginnings of a transnational political party called Singularity which is dedicated to yeah an approach to politics that starts with the inherent Unity of all life definitely the most adventurous thing I've ever tried to do in my purpose journey and I also Mentor soul-driven leaders U beings that I call Soul driven leaders I'm passionate about leadership I'm passionate about uh an evolution of the way that we human beings to relate to leadership so that we start to well more and more we have people who are leading in the world as a state of being and pioneering into creating the kind of world our hearts really long for so that's a bit about me um and I live in Berlin and I have a I I I have a little four-year-old boy and I have a yeah really sweet family life in that regard so um Awakening what do we mean by awaken Awakening and particularly the difference between radical Awakening and evolutionary Awakening so the terms radical Awakening and evolutionary Awakening are two terms that one of the streams of teaching that I just mentioned that I've spent a long time with the transan teachings which you know grew out of theosophy and so on in their most recent iterations they speak about this distinction and my view is that it's just one version of a distinction which number of different streams are making so for instance you know Andrew has spoken about being and becoming and um Wilbur in integral Theory talks about you know States and structures and uh there radical Awakening evolutionary Awakening I think you know there's there's various other iterations of that distinction which I've noticed different spiritual teachers and paths make in the form that I hang out with it uh radical Awakening with which I guess you could call the kind of traditional Awakening of the East relates to Awakening to our true nature as the one Ultimate Reality that transcends and is arising as the entire universe so the traditions of the East generally posit I mean ultimately all spiritual Traditions but the teachings of the East have a particular slant on it that there is an Ultimate Reality that there is an ultimate ground that is the n basis the Nal foundation for everything that's arising and actually the radical truth is that that ultimate ground is the true nature of our everpresent Consciousness and that if we dive into the exploration of what is this Consciousness that's simply present now that is what's you know the the field in which all our senses are having the experience that they're having actually nothing transcendentally Beyond in some you know exotic spiritual State somewhere else but really truly radically just this Consciousness that is here now if we spend time to let it reveal what it truly is it reveals itself as an ultimate infinite ground that is emptiness pure being Radiance Consciousness ecstasy energy are rising as the entirety of creation so radical Awakening that's the you know I guess how we could relate to radical Awakening evolutionary Awakening well that ground is arising as a multi-dimensional evolutionary Cosmos and that multi-dimensional evolutionary Cosmos is m a John and is emanating a danela and is emanating you know all the other beings that are here plus the other you know eight billion of us on this planet plus the other whatever it is you know 100 billion Suns that are dancing in this Milky Way plus the whatever two trillion galaxies that have been charted so far in in increasingly extraordinary universe so um evolutionary Awakening is a Awakening to the different levels of what's going on in the expression of the ground in the expression of that absolute reality and to bring that down to something that's a bit more graspable um you know for instance in the teachings that I spend a lot of time with well we understand that okay what's what's John John relatively speaking absolutely speaking John is the ultimate ground just like we are all the ultimate ground but relatively speaking John's a personal self that has a body and that has uh an you know an emotional field and that has a mental field and John is actually a soul that's going through multiple incarnations and even deeper than that there's a a breath of spirit that is the breath of that one that is that is the core at the core of that soul for instance so there's different levels to each of our to each of our relative being there's also different levels to um Humanity there's different levels to you know the um the Earth there's different levels to this Cosmos that the evolutionary process is happening within so um yeah you could say that know a a distinction we make sometimes which is a uh a crude distinction and actually needs a bit more scrutiny but you could say like The evolutionary Awakening piece is more the gift of the West and and I and I think you know that the nuan that is really you know some of the traditions of the Middle East I think if you look back at I I've been fascinated for a really long time at the spirituality of ancient Egypt for instance really trying to understand what the mysticism of ancient Egypt was and I think there's good evidence that it was very evolutionary it was about waking up to different levels of who we are and then embodying that on Earth in a way that hopefully is in service to our society and I think that you know if you look at that that flowered through the neoplatonist movement it also flowered through the abrahamic Traditions really in my view the the essence of the abrahamic Traditions is how to show up as a soul who is open to the Divine will of God and expressing that as love and service in the world and you know so that's in my view that's an evolutionary path it's not a radical transcendentalist let's just go to the ultimate ground and and you know primordially awaken first it's a it's an evolutionary movement and I think that that is also you know you could say really the same thrust that has been behind the emergence of things like Western liberal democracies and the emergence of the scientific method and that whole piece it's there's an evolutionary thrust that is at the heart of all of those hey we're on our way somewhere we're on on a journey somewhere can we unfold more of what wants to come through so that we can build something better one distinction that the spiritual teacher adid dah made once which I find a useful distinction is you could say the the traditions of the East are more kind of alpha focused they they look to what is the primordial source that is the ground and basis of what is everything that's arising whereas The evolutionary focus is more on the Omega it's where are we going you know um yeah that's a that's a a little kind of Distinction around radical Awakening and evolutionary Awakening and I think yeah part of the extraordinary and exciting for me truth of our current time is that we live in a world where there's enough flow of information and contact between practitioners and innovators and creators of different traditions and Pathways that we're more and more getting what is the type of wisdom that's been cultivated by human beings and communities across the planet for Millennia and sometimes there's a bit of a postmodern uh sometimes it's popular in kind of post-modern thought to say oh well we've just got all these different Pathways and but they're really just they're really all just the same ultimately you know and the truth is if you look a bit deeper they're not the same you know and that's exciting to me they're not the same you know for D to Hidden Hinduism is not the same is not going to the same place as am Amazonian Shamanism um Western Psychotherapy is not going to the same place as the soul work of the abrahamic Traditions um Tibetan Tantra is not going to the same place as a bunch of other places you know so but that doesn't mean it's all just different and there's no coherence it means that actually each of these traditions in my view has been cultivating something profound about a particular aspect of human nature in The Awakening process and the opportunity of our time is that if we can put that together we get to start to Envision and perhaps even embody body and experience a fullness of what it means to be a human being that has never been known before so me that's what I'm really excited by you know can we can we whatever we're talking about whether it's States and structures or being and becoming or radical Awakening and evolutionary Awakening can we put these together to start to actually Pioneer into a into what it means to be awake evolutionarily online and embodied and in service of what's happening in the world in a way that is yeah it allows us to see the blossom of what it means to be a human being in a way that is radically new oh yeah that that's beautiful John and uh before we go to H how how we can really bring this into the world and what what it means to then live an awakened life I would like to add one component that I feel when I was listening to to your talk that made me reach out to you about these distinctions and and I listened again today I was realizing that there is an interesting difference to not to the radical Awakening part the being part to the primordial ground I think that's absolutely the same in our teaching in evolutionary enlightment in Andrew's teaching but there is a significant difference that I I wanted to discuss with you how how you see that in your framework and it is that in interest teaching the becoming part is actually not the structure stage development in integral language or not the growing up and the and the cleaning up but it's a distinct Awakening to becoming that has an as absolute quality as the being is an absolute Dimension so when we are making the the distinction between being and becoming both of this Awakening or Awakenings to an absolute dimension in a way to the same non absolute Dimension but at the same time distinct we we don't want to mash being and becoming as if this was all the same no no the primordial being before time is something totally different than the evolutionary impulse as we call it that animates the world and animates Evolution so what I find very interesting and I also love in Andrew's teaching that there is is an absolute component in that drives the Manifest world or that drives the growing up that drives the structur stages and what I find interesting to see in myself but also in in other people there are two distinct Awakenings that can happen and one is to being and some people Just Awaken to being and that's beautiful and uh fulfilling and I think think some people also just wake up to becoming but I have seen people waking up to becoming and actually have this visual sense of of God of The evolutionary impulse coming through them as this energy that has created the whole universe and all the universes and for us this is this is kind of the first step this Awakening to that energy to then be in service to that energy and then we totally connect again and then live a life that is that has purpose and meaning and is here it's a batric life a life for the sake of the whole for Humanity for the world where we are in service of something higher awesome so I I'm I I'm delighted that um I I didn't anticipate that we would open a space so deep so fast um but I'm delighted to go there and um yeah this is exciting it's exciting for me to explore with you all so first of all I want to just be I want to be respectful in that I I think I have an understanding of where the teachings and tradition that I come from have something very very deeply aligned with what you're describing but I also don't I don't want to presume and I want to hold space for difference you know where totally difference is the healthy thing um that's my disclaimer before kind of jumping in sure so um yeah Daniela I feel like what you're speaking to is is really actually the Deep place that you and I meet as well which is this the passion for The evolutionary impulse which is an expression of the one and you know it's such an exhilarating place to to surrender to it's such an exhilarating reality to give ourselves to and the so the way I would understand this in the background that I come from so you know you heard me mention before um the different levels of the human being on a relative sense personality Soul Spirit you know another way that we talk about the spirit aspect is what we talk about we talk about the monad and um the monad is basically a depth of our being which is understood essentially to be ar Ray of the absolute ground and infused with the Divine will and purpose the entire evolutionary process and will and purpose is it is it's described as electric fire it's described as a current of pure life and it's described that the monad that depth of our being has never left Awakening right whilst my personal self as it was born into the world and has been through its kind of you know oh my God who am I and what am I doing here and how can I find my place and is it even okay for me to be here is you know whatever there's a level of Separation that is inherent in the in the personality structure that we all go on a journey around right and you could say in the tradition that I come from in the soul level that separation is much more permeable there much more of a sense of part of an interconnected field of intelligence and wisdom and synchronicity and and love um and then that level deeper still the monatic layer is understood to basically operate within the absolute and a within absolute but as an expression of its um electric will purpose creativity life force yeah and so part of as I say part of the work that I come out of there's a deep exploration of that actually my Bruce lion that's really been the centerpiece of the entirety of his life work has been that Focus going into that and um we have an understanding that that yes there have been human beings who that is an opening to that depth of our being is a natural part of the evolutionary process that has been something that has opened in Saints and sages you know and being on the path of Awakening through time and we have an understanding that that is coming online much more collectively at this time in history as part of a larger evolutionary process and more and more people are coming online with that we also have a our corresponding version of you know one of the things I my adventurous kind of spiritual seeking self has just always you know had my just salivated and had my mouth watering I've come into contact with you know Andrew's teachings on on uh the radicality that is necessary to make ourselves available to this energy and we have the same we have our own version of that same radicality where um even though basically the point I'm making is that even though a stable expression of that uh of that I will call it Mantic energy is something which is an advanced thing it is possible we could say for anyone on the path to really bring that online within themsel if they choose to live in a way which evokes it if they choose to give themselves to a life which is 100% dedication 100% surrender if they choose to put them to adopt a posture of living which makes that the centerpiece and that's that's the peace on their Altar and they're willing to give themselves you know to everything uh get they're willing to put everything on the altar to make themselves available to that energy living through them so um yeah you know that's that's beautiful John and and that's that's such a match also with with Andrew's teaching in the sense that Andrew's so-call first tenant says I Want to Be Free more than anything else and that's the same the same as you just described it it needs the the full and 100% or 200% commitment to Spirit and to want to live this life and to want to surrender to that energy that drives the whole process and then what is very interesting and and I'm sure there there is again kind of an overlap with with your teachings this energy then ideally meets an individual a relative self or as we call it a positive ego that is as developed as possible so in Andrew's teaching uh nowadays he makes a distinction between negative ego and positive ego negative ego being all the contracted selves the traumatized selves the the victimized self whereas the positive ego is is the welldeveloped individual that that is self-confident that is spiritually self-confident and that is actually capable to hold this energy that you just so beautifully described this fiery energy that wants to go forward and that that that is creating all the time without break and it takes a strong person to actually be able to I wouldn't even say contain that energy because you can cannot contain the energy but to be a vehicle for that energy yeah absolutely I 100% on the same page um yeah I mean I think this is in the transan teachings this is why there's an understanding that one cannot actually become a stable fully stable vehicle for that energy until there's a Le a level of integration between soul and personality to be able to hold it and for actually the whole vibration of the being to be raised essentially to to be able to hold it and I think that's one truth and the other truth I've sensed is there are certain points on the path where we can say yes to this in a way that will determine at the very least the next phase of our journey and there is a a subtle but very significant uh Dimension to that choice because if we say yes to this from a place where actually we've got all sorts of really challenging areas of our personality structure and areas where I'm locked in Shadow and moved by trauma and and still kind of you know acting out my stuff and I if I say yes to this from that place I need to be honest and sober about the reality that that means it's probably going to come through me with a bunch of distortions and so there's a there's a dimension of this of like well actually I I need to do my work I need to do my healing work I need to do my integration work so that as you know if I'm simultaneously really giving myself to posture of dedication and surrender and um saying yes to this that it's going to come through a vehicle which is as clean as possible and it's this is one of the reasons to be honest any I mean this is I feel the Affinity between the work that I've been involved in and Andrew's work and it's one of the reasons I feel deep sympathy for Andrew as well for from you know around some of the that has been around him because the truth is in my experence I I was not part of those moments a lot that I don't know but I know the level of intensity that is necessary for breakthrough into this I know that we have to be willing to go to the edge and beyond anything that we've known so far to be available to something to for this energy to to actually come online through us and so there's a level of um availability to break through an intensity which is part of the practice that is not about human eles feeling safe and comfortable yeah yeah no I totally agree and isn't it also so encouraging that it's actually possible to awaken to that to that energy without having to wait until we have perfected ourselves I find that a very very encouraged while I agree with everything you said that when when if and when you awaken you you have to be even more diligent to see all all the places where where you as as the vehicle are not Pure or not pure enough but on the other hand I find it endlessly compelling to know that this Awakening is possible in every single moment the immediacy of the potential is mindblowing yeah there is actually nothing to wait for if our commitment is there if the yes is there full-heartedly there is nothing in the way and that is something that I find so liberating for myself but also to as a message for everybody that thinks there is something to achieve first before I'm worthy to wake up yeah and actually we are all worthy to wake up yeah if we want it if we if we give our lives to Spirit to God yeah absolutely I 100% agree and I think my experience has been that it it really truly is a matter of availability it truly is a matter of how available am I making myself how available and I making myself for this and and if I'm pursuing all kinds of Personality motivations if I if I've got a good dose of my energy that's just really you know invested in well I really want the Porsche you know or if I got a good dose of my energy just like oh my God I need to achieve that kind of status in my employment life and so much of my energy is really in that then I'm not truly available for it and no and there's all kinds of versions of that there's very there spiritualized versions of that where you know if I hit you know Ascension level 10 in my belief in my whatever my new age kind of you know project is or whatever and I think the way I when I was doing a lot of work around this around monatic energy a way I would try to share it with people at the beginning would be to say well look often often when not told what's on the spiritual menu you know but actually there is a menu and you can choose really can choose what you what you choose yourself with and people take different paths and some people take a path that's really deeply going into um opening to the sacred dimension of their embodiment and you know there and that's a whole path and some people go deeply into expanding their Consciousness and downloading energy and information and having all sorts of sites and so on and connecting to their over soul and things that's a path it's a legit path you know and some people go into the traditional radical Awakening path it's a it's an extraordinary legit path there's another path you know at least one there's more and there is a path which in the teachings that in the transan uh system there's one sentence that this master says that is available to those who take the direct path of the heart and I've always loved that and for me it's not that's that's not just the heart of the Beloved or the heart of loving it's like no it's it's a it's a a posture of living path of the heart in that regard is a posture of living it is a way of it's recognizing that actually beyond my Porsche agenda or my spiritual agendas or whatever there's an extraordinary game that we're a part of that actually there's an extraordinary process where you know the most sacred Soul shatteringly sacred heartbreakingly sacred reality is exploding to itself moment to moment in a ever unfolding breaking through to you know realities that have the potential to transform Us in ways that you know just a Beyond imagination and we can participate it's possible we are called to participate yeah exactly but let me ask a question how do you in your school cultivate the capacity in people to actually come to this full yes or to to this full commitment or because I see again and again people very inspired by by this path but it seems to be very very difficult to comp to the place where you actually have this full doubtless yes it has to do with with spiritual confidence it has to do do with doubtless about the truth of the PA and the truth of of what we're describing here and probably with other components and I often wonder what what more we can do to help yeah um yeah I've spent a lot of time with this question myself as well um I feel like there has to be you know the way I think about it sometimes is the surrender switch in the soul must be pushed like the switch in the soul must have must have gone and I observe that when that happens you know and that's not something that can just be done in a workshop necessarily it's not something that you we can't do a a Consciousness exercise right now to have everyone just press the suren surrender switch in their soul you know it's it's it's something deep and it's something a core level that there's something and very subtle maybe it's something that you know the way I say it is that that yes the yes that we're talking about right now in my background that can only be said by the soul it can only be said by that depth in us that is that naked that honest that sincere that simple we all know we all have an intuition that there are places in us that we can make choices that affect our lives you know they they're not loud and bright or whatever but they we know that sometimes we're connected to a place in us which is so core even so core that when we say yes there that yes ripples through time and space because it is from a place in us that is naked and vulnerable and real and means it with everything that we have and my experience is that that that just happens sometimes for people and it there is a some people get to a point where they something in them ints the truth of this that this really is true and this really is a choice that they can make and they want life they want life more than they want anything else that's that's another teaching in the in the teachings that I come out of where it says that at a certain point um having our life moved by this energy becomes more magnetically attractive than anything else including the cost including the pain that may come with it you know and and so for me we do a lot of work around consent you know in a certain way we do we've done a lot of work around um because people in my experience often have a superficial yes there can be you know we have these conversations everyone gets amped up and it's just like oh God yeah that's what you know let's go right and then when we hang out with that yes a little longer then we realize actually wait a minute yeah yes but yes but yes but you know and and then there then there come the parts that are afraid and because again in the teachings that I come out of it said that this when this energy comes online in our life it's not more light and love necessarily you know it can be a force of life and death and destruction and reorganization and opening and vitalization of that which really can carry the energy and the current of the new phase of our life so to be really honest with you something that we've experienced in our community there have been several of us who've been through versions of this I've been through it myself that something that has sometimes followed people saying a deep and true and real yes has been times of real hardship in their life and Health crisis and um unexpected really intense challenges and it's been for those people including myself really scary and challenging and for all of those people I know have felt remarkably Freer on the other side of navigating whatever that was you know and so we joke about there being uh you know we have to be honest about the warning on the label here you know talking about we're talking about spiritual fire here and it's this is a real thing and it is exhilarating and vulnerable to live this and so I think there has to be real a real consideration of consent that happens in people and you say yes when you're really ready to say yes and yeah and I think we spend time as well with a real honoring of the no because you know an an understanding that if there are parts of me that if there are Parts deep in my core that are like yes this is this is what I'm here to live and then there are also parts of me that are like absolutely not I I do I'm a no to that there's an intelligence in that no but the the intelligence in that know is that there's parts of me that haven't unfolded themselves in the way that they need to yet you know that's the healthy side the unhealthy side can be that there's parts of me that are just addicted to my separate self projects and you know don't want to give themselves up to something deeper to operate through and so there needs to be a a a kind of yeah a conscious discernment around if there are places in me that are a Noe to this what is that is there something in me that actually just is asking for more unfolding in life so that when it is more fully expressed there's a natural surrender to a deeper principle or is it the case that actually I'm just Addicted to You Know whatever my separate self- project is in this or that Dimension and I don't want to give it up and yeah so but yeah yeah but isn't it also tricky I mean this question I find extremely tricky and I would my assumption is that we probably here in manifest n want to lean a little bit more towards the side that would say it's the small self that that says no and it's best to not listen but I totally hear you in what you are saying I think it's it's very tricky and it could well be that a person is just not ready yet but we I clearly can say that we probably tend and to and all of us tend to think there is a value in just not listening to the to the doubting voice and on once the yes is is kind of with that lished or or is very close because in my own experience the no gets louder the closer the yes is you know what I mean like there is a process you go through where you feel like the yes is very close and in my own experience then the no also got much louder and I have seen that in in many people around us and that's also interesting to see and I don't think that that kind of no is the no that actually knows better that we are not ready yet it's just the visual know of the separate self that doesn't want to give up the the the small self freedom of doing whatever he or she wants did be lose John yeah it seems like yeah yeah let's wait a minute yeah I'm sure he will come back he's back was disrupted yeah oh you were saying that that can you hear me John can you hear me winon can you hear me yes I can hear you yeah can you hear me now can you hear me now yes I can hear you now yeah I'm not sure what was going on there but you were saying sometimes this happens but there's too much current um you were saying when there is too much current when there's too much current yeah when these conversations get too close to that current I think yeah yeah yeah exactly but you were saying when someone is very close to their yes yes I I was making the point that my own experience the closer you get to the yes the louder the no gets to and I I'm making kind of a a a Counterpoint to your point that the no probably could be valuable and important and I think that's totally true and there is also this other other way to look at where you can see that oh the no actually is probably the no of the small self that just doesn't want to surrender and the the I mean I I do believe in in the resistance of ego MH that actually never wants to be free so the freedom the the Longing For Freedom comes from a deeper place from a soul or whatever our deepest place is and the ego just doesn't want to do it anyway I would agree with that I think where I've come to with it has been trust that actually um and I feel like that has matured in me as I've been through my own cycles of saying yes and then having really challenging things move in my life sometimes and then feeling myself remarkably Freer on the other side and where I've come to and I it's like my my yes now my yes in the past was more passionate and intuitive and yes this feels so true to me yes now it has the same energy but it's also more educ educated I feel because it's like I've been through some processes and I and I remember as I came out of one cycle of that especially now having a child who's in his young years and so on I remember there was a period of time where I was like well actually I want to be I know I'm I know I'm I'm due and a next yes you know for the next phase and I want to be careful with that like I want to actually just feel like am I really available for that because I know this is real I know that there can be you know just life and death can move through my life and you know so and where I came to with it was well actually yes I I know that's true and I trust I trust that whatever comes whether it's life whether it's death whether it's Beginnings whether it's endings it will bring what needs to what needs to come yeah and so yeah that's that's where I've arrived at with it and there's certain principles I guess I've been kind of hovering around my own version of certain principles of what is necessary in this practice you know I think purity of motive is one like that's something that Andrew has annunciated really like the purity of our motive to say this yes because I've also noticed as you might sometimes I've had people in my spaces where they've you know their yes is coming more from a place of hey John I've heard that maybe you've got you've got an Escape Route here and I'm really hurting maybe you you could just give me I want to get out of you want to get out of this whole thing you know so if you can help me out that would be great you know and that that is not the kind of purity of motive that we're talking about you know the Purity that I'm talking about is the parts of us that know that there is a life possible for us on the other side of a certain death that we would never know otherwise and and we want that life in our soul because and that's deeply connected to what we're here for and our and our ability to serve you know so purity of motive is one Trust is absolutely enough trust that whatever comes Life Death destruction new beginnings reorganization of our life whatever comes it will bring what's right you know but it will probably just bring it faster than would otherwise be the case you know and certain other principles as well exactly and then then I would add to that not blind trust and I'm sure you you don't mean you trust but trust that actually then responds to life like in Andrew teaching uh the realize and respond is a is a big thing like you you want to realize you want to wake up you want to be connected to that energy and then respond it it's still there is still agency that is needed from us it's not a surrender that is just believes in Destiny and everything will be good and I know you don't mean that but I just want to want to really voice it that it's an active surrender it's a surrender and respond a surrender and be available for service yeah and it's never about myself it's never about me it's it's always for the greater good for for the sake of the whole yeah yeah absolutely it's said I mean it's said in our teachings that it's the it's the extremity of the soul in service that calls forth It's the extremity of the soul in service so it's basically that the soul has gone to the very edge of its capacity to to show up in service of you know it's not just I want some energy to come online and break open my personal life so that I feel freeer it's you know yeah and that and the the surrender is actually done in the language we work with that it's done at a high point of spiritual tension yeah so it's and that's not that's not emotional tension that's not I'm really emotionally activated it's Soul tension it's yeah I'm willing to go to the edge of everything that I know and offer myself as a vehicle in service for life to break you into greater expressions of itself through the humble circumstances of my life and I'm and it's that it's it's a surrender that is an act of will you know exactly rather than a surrender that that's a release of will in a certain way yeah and I was just thinking in what you were describing this how did you say this this energy uh surrender I I was thinking and that's where for me also the role of the guru comes in or of the teacher where where this this tension to the higher in terms of the guru it plays a very essential role because the guru pulls you up there to that to that space that is not comfortable anymore where and that's the space in my my experience where this I like the your term of the Soul switch actually can be switched when when when when the tension is vibrating and and you have to take a decision and you want to take a decision and then that yes comes from a very deep part and yeah it's just so beautiful and I'm just aware as we're having this conversation Daniela like there's so much of what we're discussing is is edgy pretty edgy in the kind of contemporary spiritual landscape right oh yeah where we're in a a landscape that is so dedicated to humanity finally having safe spaces and you know and that's completely legitimate and right and needed and you know and um I had a I had a conversation with one of my closest friends in our kitchen the other night where she was saying you know yeah but I think I think we're really past this whole thing of people trying to force breakthrough don't you no no absolutely not oh it's so good to hear that it's it's I I think it's really important that we honor all of these perspectives that that what we're talking about is a particular way you know and in my view there is a a way that it will become relevant to everyone at a certain point and there's also a Truth where it it is a particular way among other ways and other incredible you know fully legitimate way and also I I kind of joke sometimes that for those of us who are doing this work and this is our this is what we're leaning into it's even more important that we have that we take really really good care of our bodies and that we take really really good care of our hearts and that we're really gentle with ourselves in certain ways and caring and soft with ourselves because actually you know if we're trying to lean into to handling you know Divine electricity here in a certain way then I want to take care of myself at the same time you know not an overindulgence in my separate self but because actually I want to honor the vehicle's capacity to hold what what I'm trying to lean into you know yeah we can also we can get burnt in this you know it's it's that's that's another thing I observed which is that I feel like in the first journey for myself into this kind of energy I noticed that I I wasn't integrated or balanced and I felt I felt like I I wasn't I felt like I got fried a little you know and I needed to do a lot of integration work and personal healing work and connection to other parts of myself which I you know my my body my feminine my trauma work my healing to actually have a more integrated vehicle that could be available to this life um in a way that where I didn't get burnt in the same way so yeah I I do think that this is very important but I think the big difference that I appreciate is that we can look into all these personal development uh activities from the relative like do the personal development to then get to whatever we want to achieve or and that's my preference we look from the other side we want to say Awakening first we want to awaken and then we want to look and we want to see and hopefully we see a little clearer and we probably see a little clearer with help of the S we see a little clearer with the help of the guru and that that's where I also love the natural hierarchy or any kind of hierarchy that actually can help us to grow yeah when it's healthy yeah but from the awakened place not from the contracted place not from the place of lack from the place of victimization but from the awakened place where we can actually see what is in the way and then some things probably are not so important as the small self thought it was and others are very important and we have to work on them and and we have to do the work to to purify ourselves yeah absolutely absolutely I I'm right there with you in the the Freedom First Freedom First exactly we have covered a lot I'm just thinking I I am that's more my curiosity probably for the last five minutes before we open uh for questions what what what is your thinking about spiritual bassing that that the lineages or teachings as ours uh often hear when the moment we you say freedom first or or Awakening first or Transcendence first there is a group of people that puts that into the box of spiritual bypassing yeah you know I think I guess I think there's a a healthy version of that critique and and an unhealthy version of that critique I think the the unhealthy version of that critique if I start there is a is a position that doesn't acknowledge that there are even you know that there are core to even more core aspects of the human being then often get attention in our culture and you know for instance one of the uh one of the ways that we approach this kind of opening that you and I have been discussing is um we talk about sometimes first things first right and so what what in for instance in the transan teachings there's a whole kind of metaphysical model and so on where the monad is described as the first aspect of our being and then the Soul second and the material aspect the third aspect and so sometimes when we talk about hey first things first it means that actually there's a there's a greater possibility for my being really being in alignment and coherence if I put that that piece first and that isn't a no to who I am as a soul of my unfolding Journey or who I am as an embodied personal self it's not saying no but it's putting first things first first and saying actually that there's yeah there's there's a greater possibility for coherence and Alignment in my whole life if I do that and the and the unhealthy version of the bypassing critique is you know actually where well look at look at where having a world where we put each of our own you know personal self Journey first look at where that's got us so we have a global hyper individualized culture where everyone's dream is to is the me project find finally fulfilling the me project into its ultimate you know kind of uh success and achievement and status and whilst the Earth you know is in a is feeling the suffering of that and whilst we have insane injustices and Shadow and terrible tragic things happening on the planet because we're alling the other way you know so um first things you that's I would what I'd say about the unhealthy version of that critique I think the healthy version is we human beings are only just C easily we are only just realizing how incredibly traumatized we all are and how traumatized how how much we've traumatized ourself and each other for Millennia through of not knowing how to be loving not really knowing how to love ourselves and love each other and and that's a sacred principle too and um sometimes you know sometimes people's uh interest or fascination with the kind of thing that we're talking about here comes from a place that has a really strong sense of identity and spiritual ego you know that's also possible where there's a a huge thing of you know wanting the the enlightenment project or wanting to be a big energy in the world or and or just wanting to have some as I said before some escape from actually the fact that I've got really uncomfortable painful feelings in my belly and in my body if I if I hang out there you know so um there is a truth also to yeah make sure you have a self that you can just that you can be good with you know and and I totally agree don't just relegate that to something that isn't important um because it really is yeah yeah but but also absolutely make that but don't make that the be all and end all because there's so much more that's possible for us and and actually sometimes maybe we even we've we we get it backwards when we try and put that first you know yeah yeah and then I Al believe that sometimes it's also misunderstood teachings like like ours I the way I understand yours and definitely ours Evolution Enlightenment is was never a bypassing teaching it's always about Awakening to be a better human being that that's all there is so you always want to take it back into our relative being and and how we express ourselves and and I love when I do a again and again tells us that uh it's not about where we think we are at it's about how we show up in the world look look at somebody and see how he or she acts and then you see how spiritually evolved she or he actually is and if you don't see it I don't care what the internal experience is of that person if if she cannot show up as a as a decent human being with with a decent conscience and morality and and ethics then it's it's not what the world needs right now yeah absolutely and that connects me to another dimension of the kind of Awakening that we're speaking about which is I feel it's important to mention which is that this isn't this isn't just an opening that happens on the meditation cushion you know we're talking something that claims our life that wants to you know that when this energy comes online in US it wants to consume and take our life and that means our outer life too means yeah you know people who are overflowing people who come into contact with this type of current and life force it it wants to come alive through how we live through how we love through how we relate through how we work through how we serve you know it's it's it and it will demand that it will demand it is expressed in our outer life in a form of passionate engagement with the evolutionary process that we're collectively a part of so you know that's sometimes I have noticed that that is really scary scary for people and and it's it is scary it's because yeah I mean it's this is for a lot of people it's really scary to connect to something that's about okay this is going to drive me actually out into the world to take a stand for something to take a stand for us and and the deepest in us and where this wants to go even if I'm living in a world which is hostile to um to often the deeper principles that Spiritual Development is focused on yeah and it's it's also an energy that that wants to take me out of my comfort zone I I cannot stay where I am comfortable it's it's uh it's getting out there and and show up and and actually surrender and be surprised what what comes on the other side of the surrender like in my case you you wake up and live in K Malai of all places which is one wonderful I just want to say like you know it's it's uh it's such a pleasure for me to be in contact with a whole community of people who are not my community who are orbiting this whole stuff you know and it's one of the reasons that I've for years from a distance just looked on at manifest Nana and Andrew's work and your work Daniela and just felt a real kind of fellowship and thank you oh good there's other people out there who are holding a point for this too and because it's rare actually it's very I don't think I know and maybe I'm just you know not maybe I'm just not super educated or aware but I I don't think I know another Community out there that's that's holding point for this as well you know so no I agree it's a rare thing and and it's it's such a breath of fresh air I I mean I I agree with you I feel exactly the same it's so rare and it's yeah you feel so close like we don't have the same lineage the same teacher and and it's it it's just it's a truth that is resonating through both of us and all of us yeah there's a profound intimacy I I I noticed that time I ran in a retreat focused on this I I noticed it we because we like to go to the Egyptian desert that's a place for us that feel very connected to this type of work and and I noticed in that Retreat I was like oh you know there's there's a way of bonding for people in embodied events where they have beautiful deep embodied experiences with other and they feel very close to each other and that's beautiful and there's a way of bonding for people in events focused on love and and you know Consciousness they you know they have beautiful openings with each other and so on but there's a different type of intimacy to this yes and it's I agree I noticed it's the intimacy of you know it can be two people who just make eye contact from different sides of the room and they both know the abyss that each other is standing at it's like the sweetness and the intensity of that of of you know what it means to the C the courage and the vulnerability and and the exhilaration of getting that close to life I love that yeah me too thank you so much shall be open for a few minutes for a few questions if there are so if you have any questions please write them in the chat box and then I will get them or lincon will and we can read them out loud and yes and thank you Dan yeah his beautiful dialogue and we have a first question from Patricia and I share also the the message to you Daniel um because it's good to read it so it's related to the small self and saying no to it so the question is uh what do Danielle and John say no to for example example what have they negated to get to a bigger yes can I give you the go joh yeah good because I I think I was talking about the the saying no to the small self uh I think my strongest sense is it's saying no about the to the doubting voes on once have had a a flavor of the opening of Awakening you probably have had experiences and you have had real openings to the Oneness that we are talking about here either in being or in becoming and then you kind of come down from that that state experience is yeah and then you come down from that state experience again and that goes on and on for a few times and you have the experience and then the experience fate again I think the big yes has to do with the fact that you become State independent that you don't need more experiences to say yes and that you resist to your question Patricia that you resist the temptation to listen to the small self voices that doubts the experience that doubts the truth of what you yourself have experienced and know to be true there is this Small Voice that when the experience is not active right now tries to make you doubt that it ever was real and to develop spiritual self-confidence means to be doubtless about the truth of your own experience of the reality of that depth Dimension and just not doubt it even if the experience right now is not one of Awakening or Enlightenment in yourself and then just resist the small self no and the small self SP and the small self doubtless Voice or doubtful voice thank thank you um can you hear me yes um I haven't really had so much difficulty with that um just on a day-to-day basis um what you said resonated with me that the deeper I go the more the self resists the the small self resists and it comes at me in all sorts of subtle ways and perhaps one one of the ways that it's coming at me at the minute is uh having it seems to split itself and have conversations within me uh and imaginary situations uh I mean I probably know now how to deal with it in terms of just becoming more aware of it and just breathing it away because it's not the truth for me um it's a real uh yes it it it was what you said about the the resistance of the self and see that very strongly from the very outset of my journey inwards it it's attacked me and it seems to get stronger as I get closer to being Freer T you want to respond to that yeah sure I I think um a place I've come to with this is that there is a um a stage by stage process that's possible for us in working with this kind of surrender and if I speak to my own kind of favorite version of that path you know my own favorite version of that path is to start with can I is there a place in me that regardless of whatever other parts of me regardless of their relative levels of healing or trauma or you know coherence or not there's something in me that is just passionately here to be lived by the all and my view and experience in being in lots of different spiritual spaces over time is that actually probably the thing that unites everyone in in various kinds of Explorations is that we all deeply want life we want to come alive and we want to be lived by something greater than ourselves and maybe we're afraid of that but there's something in us that longs to come online and be lived by something greater than ourselves and I know for myself that was you know the core of my surrender is I want to be lived by the all I would look in the mirror sometimes in the morning and be like well hi John I love you and I want so much more than you I'm here for so much more than you I love you John and you know so um step one you know that having that kind of I'm here for life and to be lived by life and that must that means that this is this is the core driver of my practice and where I'm living from step two is okay and I realize I'm an ecosystem of different parts and voices and some of those parts might feel aligned with that yes and some of those parts might feel a hell no and then how do I relate with those and my personal approach there is based on the principle that healthy uh healthy sovereignty leads to surrender so and that works for parts of us as well so when a part of me has had enough attention and support to express itself and to express itself to a point of fullness it naturally its healthy move is to naturally want to surrender and to be lived by a deeper principle so how can I be so then the practice for me is how can I be a yes to that cordr dve to actually just be radically open by life and how can I be a yes to the parts of me that say no to to give them the time and the attention to unfold and express themselves so that they then are available to a deeper surrender and and my view is that that process of working with the ecosystem our different of our different parts leads us to an increasingly more whole yes so more and more over the time over time more and more of the whole of us is yes I'm available for this and that leads ultimately to the place where this becomes everything that's my my experience thank you very much Danielle and John uh you've both answered uh qu the question for me thank you thank you and we have um so it's more comment uh or an experience from Adam but it's related to what you just shared and I think you answer to to this comment and another comment is uh from Ananda saying so beautiful thank you Alanda and we don't have um other question yet great do you have any final comment John anything you would like to say to add I really appreciate this conversation it's it's delightful yeah I just I just love that there's people out there you know have orbiting this I I just love that you know and um yeah I just I I really feel a deep sense of gratitude and appreciation to Andrew um for what he has pioneered and also uh gratitude and appreciation to you Daniela for what you've stood for and continue to stand for and um yeah I I I know the intensity of the kind of path that we have been speaking about and I think it's really important that people have sang when they are orbiting this that you know they can have people to be in connection with around and the the vulnerability and the exhilaration and the fears and the intensity and the challenges of what it means to try and live in this way so I think it's beautiful this exists thank you so much and thank you everybody thank you for coming and see you next week thank you so much Vincent we have a little bit of music thank you children by