Andrew Sweeny & Andrew Cohen In Dialogue

welcome everybody hi Andrew nice to see you hey great to see you here so I've been thinking about this question that I've wanted to talk to you about um for a very long time and um the question is how can we live a spiritual life in a world where the prevailing belief system is secular materialism and I was brought up as a secular Jew I was a secular materialist as a young person without even having any idea that that was the case until I was 16 and I had a spontaneous experience of cosmic Consciousness which gave me completely different experience about the nature of reality and I realized that the World As I understood it was very different than I'd ever imagined it to be and ever since I had that experience I've been an outsider in order to pursue my awakened interest in spiritual enlightenment I had to kind of do I had had to pursue an esoteric path that most people didn't didn't understand couldn't relate to couldn't make sense of it so I've been an outsider for most of my adult life and so I've all so I've often pondered the question how can we pursue Spiritual Awakening the path of higher Consciousness without feeling that we're on some culturally conditioned level that we're that we're maybe doing something wrong that's something that a lot of people don't approve of whether that makes sense to us or not um so often what people do who are in a similar predicament as the one I've been in is they usually find similar Souls who also feel like Outsiders and The Outsiders get together and then they're seen as that they they create a cult together and and uh along these lines I remember when I got to familiar with the teachings of Ken Wilbur that was when I I heard him speak about what he called flat land you he spoke about America as a as a culture of flat land what he meant was that there was no spiritual depth because the because the American culture and and Western European culture was trapped in secular materialism for developmental reasons and when he spoke about Flatline he spoke about it as kind of a spiritual desert it was a place that was so lacking of De deeper depth and therefore our capacity for Bor being deeply human and I remember when he said those things I had found it incredibly compelling and very interesting because I never thought in those ways before so I I just thought if what was was wondering to hear some of your thoughts about this and to see what how we could make sense out of this and because the the ultimate goal of spiritual enlightenment is non-duality or Oneness not being an outsider it's being an awakened Insider so I was wondering just what have you had any thoughts about it to begin well I can certainly relate to the sense of being an outsider and having earlier experiences with which pushed me you know outside of the norm or outside of what other people were doing or thinking or you know I once walked into a library and read a book and then I walked out again and I looked around me and I didn't have the same trust or belief in the professors or the society or or anything um and so I like went searching for for various various paths and and all that so so I can relate to that and I've also I have I have a question about this world right now I think we were talking before the break about you know we see on the news the world plummeting deeper into hell and then the grief of that and then so you know my if I throw a question back to you it's like when we use this word Enlightenment um I think this is the tension maybe you're talking about about it's like what can Enlightenment do for I don't know this little girl who whose brother was just killed and you know well I I think it reveals to us the deepest existential level of Consciousness that uh that there's an inherent non-duality there's an inherent Oneness inherent in all of reality and and there there's an there's an awaken recognition when we experience that directly that the fighting is not necessary the quarreling is not necessary that being against each other and struggling to get what we think we need is not necessary that we're all on the same team yeah we're actually on the same team even with people that that that we hate and find the iive when we awaken we discover actually on the same team that these that they they we are them and they are us in a very profound metaphysical sense with this metaphysical recognition reveals to us a possibility that in that state of consciousness seems very obvious that we don't need to be so we don't need to be against each other then we see that the human condition has been troubled by this issue ever since it we became human so this is not a new problem it's just we' become a lot smarter and more technically brilliant and creative but we haven't solved the problem so we find oursel right now in this moment where we're where we're intellectually brilliant and technically creative Geniuses but we're still struggling with with hatred of self and other and ways that are bringing us to the brink of Extinction yeah and it's very frustrating so of course then you say well what's the point the point of Enlightenment well I think the fundamental point is that it reveals to us that at the deeper level of the the deeper level of at a deepest level of Consciousness and cognition which in that state of consciousness appears to be much more real than our ordinary State of Consciousness we realize that um that that which that state in which we see that we're made of the same stuff is more is more real than that which appears to help us see that we're not it seems to be a deeper truth that I am you and you are you and me and it's not that that State of Consciousness that experience is not intellectual but it's experiential and then it gives us the faith to to live in this crazy divided world as if that were the case as if that were the case yeah as if that were the case sure well I'm saying that because I I was thinking also about this idea of evolution and then looking and saying okay what evolution you know another War it's like what evolution we're exactly the same and we worse I'm just I'm just saying that is a provocation I'm not saying there isn't isn't but I but but this is more like an emotional reaction to oh here we go again never get CH I think I have a good answer I was just talking about this with Danielle yesterday that um that we have been evolving that what we understand this the situation seems to be that our technological development has not been happening in lock step with our the evolution of our Consciousness or self- knowledge so we we can be we can become a creative genius technologically and still be a fool spiritually so that's that's I think that I think that if we had been um I think if I think if the whole world had been one awakened Monastery where people were were practicing for practicing to evolve their conscious as if their life depended on it and this technological innovation was happening in in the context of that of the awaken Consciousness that that Monastery I think the world situation right now would be might be very different we might be living in in the promised Paradise that everybody dreams about but if we just focus on you know what Ken Wilbur calls our our exterior dimensions and don't deal with the Interiors this we this is exactly the kind of mess we end up in so is the question is is how to scale this business and as such a thing possible on how to get people interested in the very difficult task of you know wanting to engage in the interior scientist so to speak well it became apparent to me when I was a kid once I had this Awakening a few moments that without that understanding without that recognition without that open nothing else really made any sense because my values were so self-centered and materialistic and narrow and narcissistic and small-minded and all about a small part of me that didn't matter anyway so it's it's always been it's been apparent to me for a long time now that Awakening to the ultimate nature of reality is not is not the goal of life it's not the that it's not the end of it it's not the end of the human experience but it seems to be necessary to be able to live a a meaningful purposeful aware human life without it we end up creating all kinds of problems without even knowing that we're doing it so I think I think the answer to your question is is um what I I proposed at the beginning that the pro the problem of flat land was secular materialism so therefore if that wasn't the case if we somehow lived in medieval Tibet or something like something similar with some modern modern version of medieval tobet where where the enlight where Enlightenment as a fact and as an attainable goal was understood by all people as the highest and most important thing in life and everything else had to be measured in relationship to that possibility then I think the rest of our our creative Pursuits would be seen in in relationship to that not not not on their own terms it's interesting because if you look at the history of Tibet and and whatnot you find out that they had slaves there you know most of most of the monks were were kind I'm not doing any practice at all there are just a few guys you know in in the forest who are who are really doing it you know so um so and I also wonder if the secular materialist culture I mean I I agree with its shallowness in many respects and that that's true but it's people are also I don't know know better than religious people it seems to me I don't know like the people are just wherever they're at um I don't know what they need I I don't know what you know I don't know what what where they're at and what they need and and you know to to get go beyond this and I well sorry I'm I'm I'm rambling here a bit but I I'm wondering if if the critique of the materialist culture blah blah blah is a little bit is it's like something else is is at stake here that's more fundamental well it's it's the it's the evolu it's the it's a Well to use integral language it's Awakening to the to the interior dimension of the cosmos that we recognize at a certain point that the reality has an exterior and an interior the exterior is matter and energy the interior is subjectivity and Consciousness and when we we awaken to the interior dimension of all of reality we realize that there is a there is KN in our capacity for senss that connects us to everything and humbles us and that that see that that that humbling can be understood as a prerequisite for being able to truly love others and to be able to be a an ethically aware human being no yeah I think what you said about what what was actually going on in a lot of the monasteries I understand that's I've I've heard these stories I know that to be true but [Music] um I was speaking a little bit idealistically I I admit that but it's the the intent the intention to create the monastery was an idealistic aspiration though and that's where I think our the hope for our species is so so everything resides perhaps in in you know or at least the first step is is a profound intention right absolutely absolutely and these kinds of experiences give us conviction that that it's possible if it's possible to see when when we look beneath the surface of reality we understand we we Glimpse it what appears to be its ultimate nature and if when we Glimpse its ultimate nature we feel that Glimpse was more felt more tangible more solid more absolutely real than anything else that's when we well the evolutionary Journey then which you brought up before might be well if if this deeper dimension of reality is more real than anything else maybe that has to be my shining that has to be my North Star maybe I have to make my life choice my my relative life choices in relationship to that that highest possibility maybe if we all tried to do that that would be we could call it living a religious life and we were if we were through aspiring to for greater verticality be maybe that we all rise up together that's of course that's an idealistic thought yeah I real it's shamelessly idealistic but I believe in it I feel there's a tension between the um the vertical like the desire for people to transcend and also um I guess what you would call the uh incarnate or or um some people are arguing for the Incarnate and are want to reject the vertical and then other people other people are just all Transcendence and and and and want to reject the world or whatever's going on there I feel there's like a tension between the two worlds can can you define what you mean by incarnate well just the body the Earth the you know you know the the um the world the the you're you're criticized for if you if you engage in spiritual practice you're criticized for trying to escape these things right yeah sure sure um well I I understand the evolutionary impulse as it relates to Consciousness as a desire to help the world become more conscious through our own development help the world to become more beautiful and more intelligent and more compassionate to our own development yeah yeah in other words I I understand it's the non understanding what the absolute principle is all about that there's no God on high that's going to be that's going to do the work for us God exists as as the ultimate nature of our own true self and if through embracing evolutionary theory embracing The evolutionary aspiration spiritually we actually become more conscious become more enlightened more beautiful more intelligent more sensitive more kind more creative then the whole world becomes more kind creative compassionate and more conscious as a result of our engagement with it and if we all can get on that train together something big is going to go down sooner or later that's that's very idealistic thinking but I can't help it yeah yeah well yeah I mean I mean I guess that I guess that um you could sign up for that or something else else and the other the other thing that you might sign up for isn't that appealing um could anything signing up for anything else be any better I don't think there could be signing up for anything better no um so then I guess I guess is your question like how to get people to sign up for this or or is that what your question is and when you're saying the secular world the Godless world all these people who are very intelligent smart technocratic you know even even Geniuses who who who are just utter and completely have no sense of the dimension of what you're talking about exactly because as as you eloquently brought up at the beginning of our conversation the human race seems to be driving the bus off the cliff yeah the bus of the totality of humanity and then the whole ecosystem all of life on Earth at a very fast pace so therefore we need some radical remedy situation what's the radical remedy again the radical remedy is waking up right is it that is that simple um well in theory it's in theory it's that simp it's not that simple in reality in theory in theory it's the ultimate it's it's the ultimate medicine for for the problem but that's that's on the theoretical level practically it seems almost impossible that doesn't mean the theory is wrong though yeah so how do you sell somebody in impossible Theory by by being well I I Believe by being a convincing Exemplar oneself yeah I've always felt that we have to be convinced that that this higher States Of Consciousness mean something the only way to find out if they mean anything is spend any time with people who are abiding in the MZ them for long periods of time and if usually if they're the real thing they start to they start to awaken our own sense of what what possible we usually start to think think what think about possibilities that we never imagined before because of their example yeah and what about you know I mean I mean you've been doing this for a long time and you've been idealistically inspiring people to get on the on the enlightenment train so to speak and and you've seen the success and failure of that well maybe I mean what for for this time for this particular time what do we need to know what do we need to know to uh how can we avoid those those pitfalls I guess it it comes it comes across to that like this the guru thing right that people are so afraid of and then and then we've talked about this before the that people want the sa to be the guru in fact they want to do it all themselves and then so there's again there's this rejection of verticality which you are kind of promoting again but how do we how did how does that how is that done correctly I I honestly have no idea yeah what I can tell you is to speak personally since you asked is that um I've been trying ever since my community crashed 10 years ago I've been trying to resist the excitement and the passion of verticality as I experience it I've been trying to resist as I could try to keep my foot on both foot on the brakes but the more that I teach the more that the spiritual Energy starts moves with moves Within Me and the more I start to get back in touch with the complexity of human condition in myself and in others it seems that this urge towards verticality is the only is the only way that's going to get us moving and so I don't I don't know of any other way that that actually that actually gets the train moving because as you as you as you said and as we discussed I think when you first interviewed me the the resistance to verticality is a cultural problem I think it's a postmodern cultural problem it's a it's a sickness postmodern epidemic it's a refusal of the highest you know of of multiplicity and plurality becomes more important than than than that which is highest and just because that's a cultural disease right now doesn't mean it's right just because there many mistakes have been made in the name of verticality and evolution in the past th s 3,000 years in the past 100 years doesn't mean the impulse itself is wrong it just has to do with the way we interpret it the way we have interpreted in different contexts it's been mistaken and a lot of there's been a lot of NE negative bad results as a result of that but that doesn't mean the impulse itself is wrong it has to do with the way we've been interpreting it that's I think any does that make sense yeah well I think what I'm hearing you say is you know bring back you know the G the GW or you know you said the highest the divine all this sort of thing is like absolutely and people are not people don't want to don't want to do that a lot of people but I think as things kind of get desperate and strange and and bizarre in the world it it feels like people are moving back to the need for a transcendental principle or highest the higher principle again I've noticed that that it's not so taboo to speak about about the Divine anymore or thank goodness one thing I wanted to bring up was this this idea that um and I think in my Buddhism there's a point where there was discussed that that that non when we awaken to nonduality the absolute nature of of ultimacy there's a there's a deep recognition that the ultimate principle the highest nature the ultimate principle inherent and reality itself exists equally at all times in all places through all circumstances everywhere God exists as much in the marketplaces on the Mountaintop that's a traditional Zen idea about it yeah so so then someone's deeply realized and for them they they they feel like sitting in the gutter sitting on the mountain top under a tree is is in relationship to being in intimate with that which is absolute if there's no difference because God is God is everywhere and if that's true which is it seems to be true on an ultimate level but if it is true that means we should be able to live the totality of The Human Experience including all all aspects of life that seem seem or would be considered to be secular like having children having a family working doing all the things people need to do to survive in this world and make make life work that that that there wouldn't be any difference ultimately between living in awake and spiritual life and a secular life that that would see would seem to be the goal when we get to when we get to these higher stages of Consciousness it always seems to be the promise that with this division between the secular life and the spiritual life would come to an end and then all life would all all the whole Human Experience would be seen to be as inherently Divine inherently spiritual and now we could do it all Under One Roof at least that seems that's seems to be the promise of integral Theory and integral Consciousness and evolutionary theory and evolutionary The evolutionary teachings of sh orind on people like him so that's my belief but I wonder if it's really true because I i' I've thought about it but is that is it really true because we we haven't gotten there yet we haven't got anywhere near that well I was just reading uh in a book about you know Buddhist tantric tradition they were talking about um the inner yogas and the outer yogas and the outer yogas require special behaviors you know really weird ones for us anyway like bathing three times a day or or eating only white foods and and you know and then and then you know really strange kind of going to a mountain and finding you very and then the inner tantas can be practiced anywhere at all time because you don't reject anything um but that's in a way there's that sort of uh we want we would like to do the inner tantress but but then maybe we're just being secular again secular humanists Protestants who don't really walk the walk half the time in in having a fantasy that we're we're we're you know we're just having an ordinary life and doing spiritual practice at the same time because we probably do have to be radical in some level like there's radicality what I think I I've always been telling people for a long time now along the lines of what you're saying that I think we need to come out of the closet yeah well what does that mean like does that mean to advertise to say what we think all the time it means to walk it means to it means to be to be and express our deepest convictions fear fearlessly and unapologetically yeah words we don't want we don't want it because I think as as we were speaking about at the beginning of the call for for reasons that are understandable and crazy a lot of people feel in light of the current cultural predicament they feel often ashamed or embarrassed about their spiritual convictions and are and are unwilling to be transparent about them except if they're in company which they feel will be very trusting or just that they're facing such a strong powerful resistance that there's no reason to open open your mouth about it certain cases right exactly so so yeah I guess it's should we just go out there and preach the gospel but I guess we have to be skillful at the same time right well there's two Dimensions to this conversation as I'm following because one is one is one is one is this like I I realized that what we've been speaking about for the last 10 minutes is very important to me it's important to you but I realize when I think about the current meta crisis that we're facing there's this strange sense that we don't have time for this discussion that there's because there seems to be such a sense of urgency now about what in God's name are we doing as a species like do we have time for this kind of cultural speculation when when the when when the bus is driving off the cliff I I I I I don't know the answer to the question but I I I noticed as we're speaking I'm struggling Within Myself nothing to do with you I'm struggling with myself between between this between the developmental tension between the fact that time is up you we don't have any time left to speculate and sense we go we have to do what we got to do with a great sense of urgency because the time is nigh the time is now time is n and we're and we're in trouble you know we're in trouble after the species and we're in trouble for reasons that have very much to do with the nature of this conversation because of human ignorance it's not anybody else's fault but our own so the problem we're facing are inherently spiritual and inherently relevant and and and maybe facing the fact that we've done we're doing this to ourselves and to the whole planet we didn't have to and we still don't have to should be enough to wake up anybody because sometimes I think because the thing with Consciousness is when you're awake to Consciousness is a great sense of urgency urgency urgency wake up wake up it's so important when you're awake but now is it feels to me like there's even a deeper sense of urgency because of the crisis we're in as a global species yeah I was GNA I was going to mention that the difference between let's say the fact that the human condition is already in crisis you know you know being human in the you know in an ordinary State at least it seems to me I mean that it doesn't work doesn't work out too well it's not it's not working out too well it doesn't work out too well so so that's always the case sometimes more than others though but then maybe now it's it's it's an intensely it's it's maybe like the best and the worst of times like the time where it's in some ways it's more possible to to do anything right now but it also seems to be the worst of times as well seems to be the best and the worst of times you get that feeling or well I I have heard other people say what you just said that that I remember was listening to Joe Rogan yesterday he's saying I'm so excited to be alive this is the best time to be alive not like that no well I've heard other people say that I said really I said I I find it quite unbearable no but what I mean is I think that the culture is so [ __ ] up and so completely you know like the that that nobody cares anymore so you can go Ahad and do intense things um if that makes any sense nobody cares what do you mean nobody cares anymore well you know you're not going to get you're not going to get um you're not going to get uh you know uh put in prison or or for your views or there's a lot of freedom right now to as long as you're not living in Iran as long as you're not living in Iran I mean in our circumstances I mean yes you could say that other places are pretty bad but we're not hungry and it's funny in relation to what we're speaking about I can feel the I can feel the the similarity between when one is very much a in one's highest States Of Consciousness feels very awake and feels how imminent is the possibility of deep intimacy and the experience of kind of Shar shared nervonic Perfection inherent in the consciousness of Consciousness with with self and other and seeing how how imminent that possibility is and then then realizing how so most people don't have any idea that that's possible and are so far away from it and are actually quite terrified of it and resist it terribly we' rather would rather jump off a cliff than experienced like a radical spiritual transparency and so I just I just feel there there's there's um I I know some sometimes like speaking to a close family member about about Consciousness he'll often change the subject very quickly because I feel he feels very threatened by it so I see a similarity between that and the way a lot of us are very afraid to look into the the challenges we're facing at a at a at a kind of at a global level right now which is which are so challenging to any kind of worldview that that that requires any sense of consistency and and of stability the because the world context is so radically unstable now and as uh I heard Daniel schenberg say the other day you know live this is the end of History so if we hear such a bold statement being made this is the end of History say what does that really mean it means it's it means it means life as we've known it is coming to an end and nobody knows what's what's coming but it's not it's definitely going to be very unstable and diff difficult to control and going to be hard to navigate it means we're going have to learn learn learn how to live live live this Human Experience in a very different way which is going to require an enormous shift of perspective and obviously a very deep obviously some kind of spiritual attainment not to not to drown in itself yeah I mean I I can't I mean I think that's true um I don't know what to add to that it's just that's just true you know you know what I mean just overwhelming um yes so so so getting back to what we were saying before so the the the ideal would be that we don't have to live two lives any we wouldn't have could could we spiritually arrive at such a place at a collective level where we didn't have to live two lives anymore whether where life where life was one where for where form was truly recognized to be emptiness and emptiness is truly recognized to be form and we weren't looking dualistically at any any aspect of The Human Experience anymore and we could really live live a more fully integrated human experience without that fundamental division yeah I was thinking of gf's idea that in a way that you could be that way with people who are attuned to you you know your songa or your community or people who are on the path with you but it would be somewhat naive not to put on a bit of a mask when you're in the marketplace so to speak no what you're saying is but you're saying no you're saying no you're saying that you know you can I mean that's possible I I think what you're saying is possible but I think we all need to put on our masks sometimes when we you're being very you're being very realistic I'm being very idealistic yeah I guess so and and we need both well you're imagining how how it could be yeah that's it's the nature of the question because um it's the nature of the question because because getting back to what at the beginning of the conversation I said I've always felt like such an outsider and of course I and just to confirm what you're saying I only feel like an Insider when I'm in the company of those people who share this insideness with me and I don't feel like other in their company I feel like we're I feel we're all one because being an outsider is not uh it's not easy yeah yeah exactly well I mean yeah there's something really painful about going to a dinner party for me anyway I don't know you think can you finish the thought well just going to a dinner party and having to have make polite conversation with people about nothing at all you know when you're burning you know you're burning inside about you know your um you want you want you want there to be meaning more more meaning not less you don't want to you know you don't want to shut down just to appease the whole thing but so but you I don't know there many times I feel very trapped in those situations like with my colleagues at work etc and and I do feel like an outsider what I do is I just kind of go quiet a situation I find what I do is I I start to sorry I interrupted you I start to clown around I do the opposite clown around that's good yeah I start to make a I start to become a clown of some kind because it's the only way I can handle the pain of it so but what but what you're saying is very interesting because you're saying that there's there's a there's a deeper sensitivity that you're experiencing that makes other people's lack of depth if we can say that if I'm permitted to to say that without offending anybody uh disturbing or offensive or Sly unbearable and even worse is when I participate in that lack of death death I sort of feel I'm betraying something yeah I can relate to that no I I spend a lot of time just sitting quietly but because I I I anyway this this [Music] um again I'm just repeating this because we haven't come to any resolution which I don't think it's possible to come to a resolution but I I feel I just wanted to to to restate the the promise of life being one and not two human experience of being one and not too that if there is there any way we could all Aspire for that probably not see I actually for myself personally I i' I've had this this this uh phrase I've been working with for a long time called spirit is higher which is which is what we were speaking about before about verticality so that doesn't offend me it doesn't offend me it actually inspires me but I know it offends a lot of people but um but I actually to contradict myself to contradict everything I was saying a few minutes ago I wonder maybe D it's not possible for for the promise of non-duality to reach absolute fruition in the material material realm of reality maybe maybe just not possible that's interesting I something you said a very very long time ago I remember you saying um like back in the day something about there's there's the kind of traditional view it's like okay here we are as human beings and this is the human realm it can be bad better but it can be worse but it's still the human realm you know there'll be Wars there'll be you know you know but um and then there's then there's the evolutionary view where okay we're we're moving towards the promised land I don't know what the answer is I'm just daating like like both of those kind of views um maybe only makes the only thing that make sense to me if to be on that train you're talking about yeah yeah I think you have to have a vision of the promised land you have to believe in it in some way I guess that would that's what it means to be a person of Faith another thing I was thinking about what does it mean to be a person of Faith it's like you can't prove any of this [ __ ] I mean you can't just say okay there's actually every evidence that you see is against that possibility almost right uh well it depends where you're looking but yeah but most most directions yes but not all directions because because there because historically there have been awakened individuals and groups of Awakened individuals that have uh been looking at looking towards the promised land and been on that train and been kind of putting a lot of coal in the engine yeah yeah seems to be built built into the human Enterprises is is IDE spiritual idealism yeah CH choam tra spoke about building the the kingdom of Shambala right exactly so that's like what should be done what we should be doing amen Amen brother and if and if we are if we're on that train even if we haven't arrived yet we're holding the vision of the what's possible for all of humanity in our in our awakened minds and hearts which is a great gift to ourselves and everyone else there's this um this this line I think it comes from the Buddha but I I learned it from my Guru he said that uh as Nirvana has no beginning and no end so also samsara has no beginning and no end which are two completely different perspect ultimate perspect absolute perspectives on the nature of reality so the unawakened perspective of py materialist would be one that was what was uh based upon the conviction that some sorrow has no beginning and no end yeah yeah well that is a conviction isn't it that that that's what scientific materialist people that is their conviction it's like bunch of atoms exactly swirling around there's no meaning there's no purpose there's no rhyme there's no reason there's no direction there's no a ain't nothing and then we die we do some cool things and then yeah but then but but but a spiritual secular M an intelligent secular materialist often sees as a sign of intellectual strain be able to Bear the meaningness the apparent meaninglessness of of existence without falling with without drawing any negative conclusions about what it all actually is is all about yeah that's that's all wrong that's that's existentialism that's exactly that's all wrong that they got it wrong I think I think they got it way wrong I think that's such a brutal you know such a brutal vision of life you you just push the mountain up the rock up the hill every day and then you're Som it's so desolate sopus it's it's a desolate vision isn't it completely so I mean I I can understand why it arose because there's so much desolation that occurs here and that that would arise makes sort of sense but without a deeper connection to reality of course it life does seem desolate and purposelessness because one not aware of the deeper currents that are flowing yeah [Music] um yeah like Albert Kimu said that you should become a saint without believing in God and like exactly I I just that that just makes me think no just no right that's all you could respond to that spiritual spiritual desperation and urgency because um you know sometimes these these deeper moments that we experience these deeper moments when we Glimpse when the inner eye opens up we Glimpse these this the karmic lines that have led to this moment these are moments usually don't last very long but they're a glimpse beyond the relative appearance of our own existence in time and space and place then then we GL we can Glimpse these kind of karmic the karmic trajectory of our own life and it doesn't last very long but we get a sense that we've been on a Jour we've been we've been on a individually and collectively we've been on a very long journey that is not mindless or meaningless or purposeless and then what we do actually has has consequences and choices and then we're all participating in this Cosmic drama that the Universe set in place even though I haven't even been aware of it and then suddenly it all makes sense yeah and without that conviction it's hard to live a life that feels purposeful so like the collapse of meaning let's say in the 20th century and in postmodern is this total collapse this collapse of meaning it seems to me like there is a process where you're you have meaning and then you lose meaning and then you have to find it again so even the collapse of meaning is part of the meaning could be if if we keep going they don't give up if we keep going to the next if we get to the next part um because for a lot of people the existentialist position becomes the rest of the place where they rest yeah the hill that they die on or something yeah yeah exactly the hill that they die because um it seems that right now our species seems very very inspired by our technical Wizardry and what what's possible that seems to be very inspiring and kind of exciting and thrilling and scintillating and titillating if only we could we could get all if we could all get get get that interested in what's possible in terms of our inner development to get back to what we were saying at the beginning of the call then we could we could be we could be responsible um creators of these magical powers and and be able to handle them without destroying our life our own lives and every and all other life on the planet at the same time yeah you said magical power so that that's kind of I think what it is yeah well some people have have have equated ai as as an emergence of magic in a later time in history swh similar to what Mel magic is that's why I use that metaphor yeah well it is it does appear to like it does appear to be a kind of magic exactly um yeah yeah well when you were saying that people are very excited about all this technology and stuff I think people are equally as like there's this whole Doomer thing as well like there is equally has equal dread about it as they have excitement or even more so like people have invented these things but they also dread them and they also at the same time they also fear them and Dread them and and and so so so the the excitement is is is maybe for a few nerds but what what I like I get like when I go to school everybody's just panicking About Cha GPT or it's like it's like there's a kind of um maybe that's another kind of uh sort of it's like either you go for eternalism or nalism right one or the other as they say in Buddhism was like eternalism or you believe in like you know the greatness of these things that can are going to transform the species into something perfect or you you just you just live in dread all the time well especially now now there's a lot there's a lot of reason to live in dread because it seems so much seems so Dreadful yeah why especially now that's like well because because the because as Daniel said it's the end of History because things are because we're the the the speed in which this creative process is occurring is is is out of control and and the a lot of the people who've created realized that that it's it's getting very dangerous and they're losing control but they can't stop they can't stop they can't stop being engaged in the creative process it's almost it's because it's too [Music] irresistible yeah because we often usually think of the creative process as being a positive thing not an impulsive thing like just keep creating the Frankenstein or or the exact Frankenstein Frankenstein's monster because you can't help yourself uh but that's what it seems that's what it seems like it feels like for a lot of a lot of people in those those positions right now that there's there's this overwhelming irresistible compulsion to keep going realizing that that we should we shouldn't be doing this yeah that's why Elon must said we need to stop for six months and no nobody's doing it nobody will do it nobody wants to be nobody wants to lose lose the race yeah well I was thinking about you know Mark GNE was saying that there's like you know there's like 10 there's a few hundred AR maybe it was Zach there's a few hundred people in Silicone Valley OR tech bro billionaires who are quite brilliant and completely out of touch at the same time and and then if you look at the politicians oh maybe some of them are brilliant they don't even seem brilliant they just seem out of touch you know most of the politicians that you see uh and then it's like why are there no enlightened Kings or why are there no enlightened leaders how where are the I guess why why do the enlightened leaders are why are they always Outsiders is that just the nature of this realm or is it I I met a I met a a spiritual Guru in in Bangalore in India about three years ago who was an invit of bante teacher who was he had a powerful Awakening so he at the level of Consciousness he had he had real real non-u depth but he was a traditionalist and a fundamentalist and he he was he was told me with utter conviction that Modi was an enlightened King [Music] the prime minister of India Modi oh okay okay rightand Narendra Modi who's actually a fascist and a racist yeah right yeah he was he was convinced that he was an enlightened King and and and I was amazed because um I don't know if you know integral philosophy got Ken wilver and Alan comes latus they the wiber coms lus which which makes basically makes the point that that the emergence of enlightened awareness can happen at any stage of human consciousness yeah that you can be you can be a traditional fascist and and awaken to Enlighten awareness you don't have to you don't have to reach the postmodern level of Consciousness to to en to awaken to enlightened awareness so he was saying that there are such things enlightened fascists and he pointed to this famous book called The zened War which describes how in Japan during World War II most of the most revered Zen Masters who have been recognized to be enlightened at the highest level within their own tradition all fully supported the the emperor's totalitarian aspirations to to take over the Pacific so so this this Guru who was who was very sincere man was convinced that Narendra Modi was an enlightened King so how so what does it mean that he's enlightened then if he if he if he's so ignorant I think he I don't think he is I think he's I think I think my my I think my my my Guru friend in Bangalore was misguided yeah but this this is the Challen this is we get this is the challenge between idealism and realism now right right I guess the two need to be kind of like in a in a in a a dance with you know we need to have both in in a sense because if you get if you get too idealistic then um yeah then you we don't have compassion for reality the way things actually are yeah but what if what if uh Andrew what if our what if our culture would evolve to the degree that we realize that that these spiritual values and these spiritual principles were fundamental and and and and uh and a necessity at a primary level in order for us to be able to evolve in a way that wasn't going to be destructive yeah what if but doesn't that make sense because the question is how do we get into this mess and we can see at a primal level because we are we didn't we weren't educated with these with these primary spiritual values as being as and understanding them to be uh necessary foundational building blocks of Caron a f insanity and if we if we were taught that at a very early level of life and we're and we're yeah and taught a different perspective on the nature of human growth and a nature of reality itself and the meaning and purpose of life and evolution of human consciousness we could fit fit all the other aspects of life that are also important in that context in a way that would make sense would UL be able to handle it as we can't handle how powerful we become now because because of our own lack of Spiritual Development yeah so so I is I guess the thing is to educate people and um I I don't know if that can be done on mass or anything like that but I even think that if it's done in small communities that that would have a profound effect even if it isn't done on mass and it isn't um that that that there would be a ripple effect to the rest to the world so maybe the small just focusing on the small communities and and and and and the education of younger people and and getting people educated in the spiritual path well you no I agree and you're saying well there's maybe there's no time it's too urgent I don't know well I find I I find interesting in this discussion we're coming we're we're coming upon again and again the dichotomy between idealism and realism but what what I found what I what I find and I found very helpful in terms of my own thinking about all this is that um is when we can understand why we've end ended up in in this mess and how we've ended up here it it helps it makes it more bearable because if we if we understand what created the problem then we get a sense of what the solution could actually be and that gives us a sense of self-confidence about reality itself otherwise we can tend to think that the whole project is is doomed from the beginning so how would you articulate like the nature of the the problem as you said well I what I was just saying it has to do with what what what what what is it a primary that's of a primary importance what what what is the fundamental truth that we need to become conscious of and become aware of and awaken to in order to in order to be able to put everything to prioritize our life choices in a way that makes spiritual sense yeah I was I was reading again G gerf def Define the word sin right asleep like stay saying asleep and I thought that was very profound and I was thinking about that but then if you're asleep how can you sin because you're asleep but anyway I think he's making the point is yeah the point is is is is is that we're asleep no most what even worse than the fact people are asleep they they're asleeping they don't know they're sleeping yeah so I because look I was brought up to be a spoiled Brad my parents told me sweetheart you should do whatever is going to make you happy so they they they kind of conv conditioned me to feel that life was an oyster and I I was there to enjoy it to do whatever was going to take on my fancy they didn't tell me that there's bigger context that I was going to be needed for and that there was a larger purpose to all this and that I wasn't the center of the universe yeah because what's what's helped me to understand our current predicament was is this is the recognition that um that that when um which which is the which is greatly poed with the modernism it's made so much possible and I've greatly thought we lost touch with our own interiority and our own spiritual depth and that created the conditions that made what made the challenges we're facing now almost inevitable in terms of over 400 year period And when I understood that it was very it was intellectually a relief it wasn't existentially a relief but intellectually was a relief because I said oh I understand how we ended up here it's almost it was [Music] inevitable I guess it's a relief to realize the inevitability yes of what's happening and just to to sort of accept it even if you have to you know like I was this morning you know sobbing um looking at images on Twitter well because because if you know why we why we've ended up in this situation gives it's it's empowering it gives one a sense of strength because the because the feeling of not knowing not knowing why why things happen at all feel being feeling clueless and utterly lost and at the mercy of the forces of nature and of human ignorance is a terrible is a terrible way to feel but similar as I said I think we were speaking about this before we got on the call I similar to you yesterday I burst into tears a few times for the same reasons that you did because contemplating the nature of this terrible war that just broke out in the Middle East and realizing how much how much death and destruction was going to happen and how inevitable it was and how absolutely unbearably tragic and horrible it is I could I just didn't know what to do with myself it just about the pain the pain it was the pain of the pain of human ignorance and how much suffering was going to be result in this was just I didn't know how I didn't know what to do with myself yeah yeah that's it I mean I guess I guess for me it was coming up against the the imposs like it like a a mother has to tell her child that your her her son that his sister has been killed and is is not coming back it's like it and he was crying is she coming back and and uh and the mother says no she's not coming back it's like and the child is just weeping and I'm like like oh my God this is like it's it's just there's how do you go beyond that how do you how do you how does anybody go beyond that how I don't know how to say that but that that's what got me somehow it's like how do you go beyond that well I guess at some level at some level of grief we have to come to terms with the fact that uh so much of what happens in life is not it's just not fair and so and there's cruelty involved that make that makes no sense that that the rational mind can't fathom and our fragile Hearts can't bear seems to be built into the process when the Big Bang happened yeah sure so do we do we agree um do we agree that um because we take questions do we agree that uh that Awakening to and embracing spiritual idealism can uh often help us enormously to be able to make the make the most the wisest choices in relationship to the unavoidable the unid unavoidable restrictions of relative reality in other words we want to fly keep our sail fly flying very high but realizing that this the Seas were were were sailing in are very Rocky and we're not going to be able to avoid the storms at the same time holding that holding that that kind of Duality with a lot of courage and strength does that make sense yes I'm sorry about my lighting I'll go and close my my blinds in a minute the sun is coming right in um uh I I I I agree in a sense but it has to be a very tough intelligent kind of idealism oh absolutely I wouldn't have it any other way so that's that that would be my only as long as it's that as long as it's like as long as it's really uh as long as it's the kind of idealism that is is you know that is sort of absolute and and intense and beautiful and as long as it's not your man my own heart most people don't like tough idealism these days yeah it's true how did you get like that I have no idea I'd have to yeah that that that might be a long conversation but um yeah well yeah I I guess a lot of I guess a sort of I guess things kind of my my my my projects or or what I wanted or what I thought the world was kind of fell apart and so that presented me with something else and so that falling apart business is actually probably where where uh one becomes a person of of Faith like it has to fall apart first and then you can become a person of Faith as long as you don't fall apart yeah as long as you're still here and and still going but yeah well very good very good okay let me just close my blind so that so go for it for give me two seconds here excuse me sure oh now I can see you there we go now it's like night time in here all right well thank you Andre thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you I think you are absolutely love a lovely soul brother thanks so and your I think your your Fearless conviction about absoluteness I find I find very compelling and irresistible and I feel you're a man of my own heart thank you Andrew yeah it's it's um I feel I feel yeah I feel as soon as I I see you I feel oh I'm I'm I'm at home so I feel the same way I think thank you so much thank you very much thank you everybody much thank you