Andrew Cohen - N°14 - LAST RETREAT - January 2025

So I want to try and share a few relatively abstract ideas with you about consciousness. Most of what I'm going to be speaking about doesn't actually exist as objective facts about the nature of reality, but they are ways to help us think about consciousness. Is that we think about reality affects the way we relate to it consciously and unconsciously. If the way we think about reality, especially when we speak of these subtle dimensions of our experience, is more in alignment with how reality actually is, we'll find that we're living more in alignment with reality as it is. Although when speaking about consciousness, it's very important to have a very light touch. Not to take these deep descriptions too overly seriously. We want our capacity to think about these subtle realms to be stimulated, so our mind opens up. And our capacity to cognize reality deepens in ways we didn't expect. So we want to hold a lot of these ideas with a very light touch. When I was a little kid, I lived in New York City. I lived on the second floor of an apartment building. And I lived on Lexington Avenue on the Upper East Side and the building across the street from us had 12 stories. And we had a German housekeeper who looked after me with a wooden leg. She was a She was strict Catholic. She was horrified that my parents were atheists. She was very worried about my soul, I think. In any case, she she would sit on the window sill and watch people walk by on the street below. She said, "You see the building across the street, Andrew?" I said, "Yes." "You see the top floor, the 12th floor? See that little apartment up there? That's where God lives. And he can see everything you're doing, baby." And I believed this for a few years until I grew up. So that would be an example of somebody a little boy literalizing what this crazy old woman was telling him. So once again, we want to be able to embrace these more complex and subtle distinctions about reality with a very light touch. But we can help inform our cognition and our consciousness without being controlled or ruled or dominated by the ignorance that happens when we materialize something that's not that doesn't really exist as an objective material entity. And as I develop as a teacher and as a man as I get older, I try and find I'm able to expand my capacity to embrace greater complexity with taking all of it a lot less seriously at the same time, which makes me much wiser than I was when I was younger. As a younger man, we want to literalize everything. We want to be right. We want to be sure about the truth. And when you realize that it's impossible to be sure about most things, absolutely sure about anything, makes us much more cognitively flexible and emotionally flexible about absolute truths which get people very hot under the collar anyway. So what I want everybody to I want you to begin to think about the meaning of verticality. Verticality. Which means the sense of something rising and going from lesser complexity to greater complexity. Less knowledge to more to more vast knowledge as the process of ascension takes place. This whole notion of verticality is very profound, very subtle, very provocative, very meaningful. Now as I've mentioned once or twice on the retreat, I find it very interesting to bear note of the fact that Ramana Maharshi, one of the greatest realizers of the 20th century, lived here in Tiruvannamalai. He didn't do anything about verticality. He never spoke about it. For him, consciousness was the the eternal nature of absolute reality. He was seeing it all times and all places and all directions simultaneously. There was no higher or no lower. It existed everywhere all at once. So when he heard Aurobindo speak about these higher states, overmind, supermind, like that, he didn't know what he was talking about. It seemed to him that he thought he was misguided. Reality is everywhere. There's no such thing as higher or lower. It's the eternal nature of the totality of everything that exists and doesn't exist. So what's the meaning of higher or lower? And he was obviously fully enlightened, whatever that means. Right? Looked like it. Either he was fully enlightened or he was crazy, or both. And yet obviously Sri Aurobindo knew something about the evolution of consciousness. Exactly what he knew, I don't know exactly what he knew. I think a lot of people really do. But he spoke about a lot of this the nature of verticality in a way that was very specific and very articulate. In my former community, where I was putting a lot of pressure on people to take these big leaps, we did have all kinds of experiences of higher states together. Some of which sounded like supermind itself. This proved to us that these higher states with these miraculous potentials actually exist. Most people never tap into them, so they don't know they exist. So there's a whole world of possibilities in higher states of consciousness, especially as it relates to the evolutionary impulse. So the way I think about static being, imagine entering into a space where it's eternity exists at all times and all places and all circumstances forever. But there's no such thing as higher or lower. And if there's no such thing as higher or lower, that could that makes sense if that could be an absolute truth and absolute reality. No higher or lower, no here, no there. This is one way to cognize the uncognizable. It's something you have to think about on your own. Meditate on it and see if it makes sense to you. If it makes sense, you just reject it, but these are places that just point to this. But what Sri Aurobindo is speaking about, there's definitely this ascent, this process of ascension from a lower state of being in consciousness and cognition to a higher state of greater complexity and greater knowledge and greater uh affect. Which has everything to do with the creative principle awakening to itself through the individual, through the collective. It's very very different. It's not the same state. It's not the same thing. Now I find this the concept of verticality or the word verticality very intriguing. And to me it's very uh compelling. It's very compelling. It's very attractive. And it's very ungraspable. This verticality mean means this in a concept in a context of an of an infinite awareness. So that's a little bit difficult to hold those two truths at the same time. Infinite awareness and ascending context. It's very difficult to hold. But where I think it becomes very important to begin to grasp the significance of verticality is when we try and understand what ego transcendence is actually all about. As I promised all of you, this teaching could could show us a way to actually transcend ego. That we don't just talk about it. We're actually trying to do it. Now the idea of ego transcendence is very subtle. It's very profound and very ungraspable for most of us. But what I want you to realize is that the greater the our capacity to achieve vertical lift-off in our own experience of conscious consciousness and cognition, the smaller the small self becomes. So the higher we ascend or the higher we seem to ascend in our capacity for more complex consciousness, the small self that's called the ego seems to diminish in size. The higher we go, the ego gets smaller and smaller. That's what seems to happen. And simultaneously, the more we ascend, the presence and power of what we would call the authentic self gets bigger and more profound and more overwhelming in our experience of affect and direct feeling experience and vibration and knowing. So there's something I want you to try and hold in your awareness that uh the more we experience the truth of this ascension, the more powerful our experience of the self, in this case that it has become more powerful, more powerful the feeling of existence is. Uh I think we exist. The more powerful your self sense become. Simultaneously, the ego sense gets smaller and smaller the higher you ascend in this vertical context. And it's very interesting to me and beautiful. So paradoxically, the more powerfully awakened you become in an evolutionary awakening, the smaller your ego diminishes in size if you're doing it for real. That's paradoxical, which a lot of people don't understand what egolessness is all about. They think it's some kind of spineless humility. Which has nothing to do with ego transcendence. So it's this paradox between the cognition of this is this is sending dimension of reality and then then the diminishment of the small self which is what I wanted to say I wanted you to think about. Because it's it's uh counterintuitive to the way we've been learned learned to think about reality. Just that what how we used to thinking about being human. The this higher levels are more powerful the more powerful you become the more ego-less you become at the same time. If you do this right. So, when you're trying to do this work for real you don't have to be frightened about what your ego's up to. You don't have to be constantly watching it like you watch a little dog. It's less about controlling your lower tendencies. It's more about having your consciousness focused on the liberating your higher potentials. And if you're liberating your higher potentials you really have to have your attention on them. I mean explain that that these these higher potentials are the friend you can't see. But these higher potentials will show up through you as you if you focus on them individually and collectively. Now, I came up with six principles about uh 25 years ago. These are part of the ways this verticality works when we're trying to evolve the level of consciousness. In fulfillment of through the fruition of this dharma this dharma it becomes fully realized fully actualized fully embodied [snorts] and fully manifest when it becomes possible to experience and manifest autonomy which is radical independence of self rather radical autonomy radical independence of self radical agency means you become fully self-actualized you become fully the unique individual that you have the capacity to become no longer so dependent on what other people think what other people feel no longer lost in conscious and unconscious levels of insecurity and fear but you become fully self-used fully self-actualized. So, the the full um materialized potential of this dharma becomes possible when when our capacity for radical autonomy and radical agency and independence of thought independence of action independence of choice independence of existence can coexist in the same individual collective world space as the capacity the unique and very rare capacity for radical union radical communion with the other and the others the world and the whole universe and radical merging of self with the other the others the world and the whole universe which is the the oneness at the level of shared humanity shared sentience. So, there's a big paradox there because radical agency radical autonomy radical independence of self and and new capacity for creative engagement with the world is one one end of the spectrum the other end of the spectrum is your capacity to trust so deeply that you can merge to a very profound degree the other and the others the world and the whole universe on a level of being and knowing and experience and shared sentience that's profound and inherently meaningful. A lot of people think they want but they don't really want it cuz they're scared to of that kind of intimacy. But a lot of people think they want it they really don't they're very much afraid of it but what I'm trying to say is that this teaching becomes fully self-realized or self-actualized or its potential becomes fully realized when you whoever you are as the unique individual as the evolving unique individual awakens or cultivates this capacity for radical autonomy and radical communion at the same time in the same space in the same physical location. This is very meaningful because usually if I'm going to pursue my capacity for radical agency radical autonomy radical independence of self for all the right reasons I usually need to withdraw from relatedness and relationship with with the other the others the world and the whole universe to become fully who I can be. I need to withdraw to become who I can be. It's true for most of us. And in the same way if I'm to experience profound communion or oneness with the other the others the world and the whole universe I have to abandon a measure of my capacity for autonomy need for autonomy. Let go of it so I can merge and become one with the other the others the world and the whole universe. Right? So, in the evolutionary non-duality of this dharma I'm saying the miracle is if your evolutionarily authentic authentic self awakened radical autonomy and radical communion are not in any kind of conflict whatsoever. Isn't that interesting? I'm boldly declaring that in this teaching if you're evolutionarily awakened to the truth to the authentic self there's no conflict between radical autonomy radical independence and uniqueness and radical autonomy and merging. They can happen in the same place in the same space. So, this if what I'm saying is true and it is true and it's very rare to succeed at this believe me. But it's the promise of the teaching one of the many promises of this teaching. Because your authentic self like mine is already liberated so it doesn't need time and space to build up its personal strength and karmas and willpower or to feel ready for the fight it's always ready for the fight. And the authentic self is always ready for love ready for communion. Doesn't need to go anywhere to have to be ready for that kind of vulnerability authenticity or transparency cuz it's always already the case the authentic self. You need to appreciate the significance of this the spiritual significance of it. So, this the self doesn't need to change positions or change attitudes or outlooks to accommodate these two radical experiences on both ends of the spectrum. And if what I'm saying is true and it is true the implications for human consciousness and culture to see radical consciousness and radical culture become very profound. You think about what it means it's very compelling the potential of us speaking very very compelling. So, please think about everything that I'm speaking about in the context of verticality which is this process of ascension context of radical ascension where it seems like it's going from lower to higher whether it really is or not I don't know. That's what it seems like. And in that context of radical ascension more and more capacity for this going higher and higher so many more things will become possible gradually. At least that's how it seems. And if there's no ceiling on human potential which is what a lot of lot of people say there's no ceiling on human potential. We don't know how far this can go. These are some ways to help you think about what we're doing together. It's going to expand your ability to appreciate what's possible between us and within yourself and between us in the context of this teaching. So, the concept of verticality should be should be a concept that should help you to wake up and to stay awake. Within the context of your capacity for verticality are you as awake as you can be? Or are you are we making infinite room for our own awakening to more and more verticality within ourselves? And living the spiritual life in earnest is should be creating all the perfect most perfect conditions in our own life. That has to be the case. So, what does it look like? It looks like someone who's open minded self-confident flexible in their thinking good-natured optimistic not cynical cautious not naive stuff like that. Independent independent independent independent independent not a robot not a brainwashed robot. It means someone who's actually gained a measure measure of authentic independence as a unique individual which is not merely the ego hiding out from having to make a commitment. For a lot of big dream people independence is just another way for the ego to hide out and not be held accountable. That's not what I'm talking about. That's cheap independence. It's not the real thing. So, to become truly independent you have to become vulnerable, right? So, it means you can be hurt as much as it means you're open open open. Your ego ego has a big hole in it you're open. You're not hiding out waiting for a better deal. Or working on yourself not ready to be exposed yet not ready to stand naked in front of the totality of reality not ready to be seen or to be counted. You're not ready to say yes or no affirmatively. That's kind of a no man's land, right? You're not ready for prime time no man's land. So, for me the concept of verticality is a very promising word because it it implies this infinite potential for growth for our personal growth. Individually and collectively within this case my trying an individual level there's infinite room for us to grow in all ways that are important. Which means it's always good news no matter what has happened up until this point. All bets are off. Nothing is fixed. What happened has already happened. What can happen is still vast and wide open. This next one is very important. It's called of motive and integrity of action. So this has to do with your soul, the state of your soul. Which can be observed by scrutinizing the nature of what you do and how you live. This is true for all of us. Where are you? Where are we really at? So for spiritual development to be seamless and profound at the level of a at the level of the soul there needs to we need to have a very pure motivation. We need to be operating from a very pure motivation level of our soul. And we need to be acting out of a profound level of integrity related to that purity of motivation consistently. I'm not talking about putting out small fires now and then. I see you know where you're really coming from as a person. It's how we feel about each other. Oh, I met so-and-so and they said very good person. They're very well meaning. They're very sincere and they're very beautiful. They mean what they say and they say what they mean and they're very transparent and authentic. They're living for love not for personal reasons. I'm very blessed by them. I've known them for 10 years. I can trust them. I can rely on them because they are who they say they are who they appear to be. So they're trustworthy. They've never let me down. This kind of thing. So this is like the soul level motive, soul level motivation. Which is deeper than the psychological egoic motivation, soul level motivation. And the appearance of integrity that emerges from that uh that degree of pure motivation you need to get to. Finally, in the evolutionary context there's such a thing that I called creative friction. So creative friction friction usually it's the kind of thing that is a bad thing. I'm feeling a lot of friction with you, man. But creative friction is very positive friction. Creative friction creates it's like rubbing two stones together, two matches together. This friction creates fire. So for for example using the example of the very talented musicians, they enact level of creative friction together. It gives rise to beautiful music, beautiful harmony, melody, rhythm that uplifts the soul. It's the music of the spheres. The spirit comes through that kind of creative friction. So to the lazy, self-indulgent, narcissistic ego man, what is all this stress all about? Take it easy. Let's go back to Goa. Take it easy. No stress. Nowhere to go, nothing to do, remember? Like the man said. So people who are turned on by the evolutionary impulse and are are in spiritually intimate relationships are giving rise to creative friction through their relatedness. Creative friction feels very good. It's like making music. But it's it's not not just playing old music, it's creating new music together. So creative friction is very positive. It means you don't want to be left alone. It means you want to be deeply engaged with life creatively. You want your life to be an expression of evolutionary movement in the context of verticality. You and or we are going somewhere together and we're we feel it because of the we're engaged in this process of creative friction together, which is very stimulating, inspiring compelling. It activates the best out of the best of all of us. It's the opposite of people who are into retirement consciousness. What you're saying is very inspiring, Andrew, but I've been there, done that. Oh, really? God bless you, man. God love you for everything you've done for your manager. So [snorts] the reason why the creative friction is important because the post-modern ego is very what is very spoiled. Hates too much evolutionary tension, hates stress. We hate stress, goddammit. But a creative a life creatively lived is very stressful sometimes because you're trying to get somewhere new. You're on that evolutionary train. Remember my understanding what you're ever going to get by the psychic being is you're waking up on a moving train. You're not alone in that train. There's other people there too and they're on the same journey with you. So you're all going somewhere together that's new. That can be very stressful and very exciting, but the evolutionary impulse that's live when we live it it's it's can be very stressful but in a very positive and exciting way. Doing anything important is stressful. So if you want to evolve individually and collectively you you need to get comfortable because I I want to I want to evolve. I want to grow in a context of verticality, which means I want to end up somewhere that I'm not I'm not there now, but I want to get there in the future. It creates evolutionary tension. Which can be a little bit uncomfortable. The old enlightenment says don't worry about it, man. Everything's perfect. Everything's always already perfect. That's what we get stressed about. That's not true in an evolutionary context. So if you if you evolve you'll be able to see more clearly. So this post-modern instinctual revulsion for tension and anxiety is something we have to question because sometimes if you want to grow you have to you have to experience a measure of stress. If you go to the gym and you're working out in a serious way you're going to have to be willing to suffer to grow muscle. Get strong and you have to pay a price. That's not that's any different than that. But I'm talking about psychically and spiritually here, emotionally and emotionally and spiritually. It's a certain attitude in relation to life that's very engaged committed. They're willing to suffer for God, suffer for consciousness. Because it's the only way it's going to happen. Somebody's got to do it. So there's a relationship between creative friction and evolutionary tension. Something you should all think about. If you want to grow spiritually and you want to evolve consciously then these are forces of um all kinds of emotions you have to feel start to feel comfortable with. If you want to retire it here is a good place for spiritual retirees. >> [laughter] >> If you retire it means you you've given up. That's a terrible thing to do, but that's what a lot of people do. They give up. I used to believe all these things you're talking about, Andrew, are possible, but now I'm not so sure anymore, but you know what? I'm kind of running out of energy. I I just don't have the energy anymore to care that much. That's what I mean by retiring. So if you're not retiring that means you're doing it now. What does it look like? It looks good, feels good. Looks good, feels good, is good. Means you somebody is you're someone who feels like they're on a journey of becoming in an evolutionary context you're on a journey of becoming. Of inner growth that's dynamic and you can feel it. This person is alive. They're conscious. They're thinking. They're feeling. They're caring. They're aspiring to make progress. They're humble. And they're bold. They're thinking big ways. They're aspiring for higher possibilities. For bigger reasons than anything personal, so they're turned on. So think about all these things in the context of what I said about verticality. Verticality is kind of a context where you think about where your body and mind are located in time and space in the universe. Is it a context of verticality or not? You know, this intensity that I constantly speak about that I'm speaking about this morning in the context of the evolutionary impulse. I was just realizing that it also for myself is true that unless I regularly experience this intensity in myself I also felt myself falling back to sleep. The intensity is necessary to wake us up and to keep us awake and to keep us reaching but the intensity is the thing itself. But if I go through periods of time where I'm out of touch with that intensity and I'm not associated with other people who experience that intensity or feel it. That's an effect on me also. I start forgetting about what's possible. Even though that's what I live all the time. This is very delicate. So this intensity we need we need to experience this intensity in order to continue to awaken and to continue to grow. The intensity wants to be seen and felt by us anyway. When I was in the hospital I was very aware that my mind was getting very small because I was so lost in my biological feelings after the open-heart surgery which is understandable. But I could start to see that everything I was I'm teaching and sharing with all of you was suddenly I could I was getting worried because I could see it moving very far away because I was so overwhelmed with my physical trauma and physical challenges. I started to see that all of this Dharma was still there but it was getting smaller and smaller because I was overwhelmed by my biological feelings. I didn't like it. And the minute I started feeling better all came surging back. So what I mean to say is for all of us that as we get older we don't have an unlimited amount of time to do what we need to do and to be awake in the ways we need to be awake. Don't take your capacity for consciousness and your capacity for for health and vigor for granted. Cuz you need to be healthy and and full of vigor and then in order to be able to do this. If you're sick and you lack vitality and strength as much as you love the Dharma you're not going to be there for it because you're just going to be trapped in your body and you're trapped in your physical survival. As enlightened as enlightened as you think you are or not it doesn't matter. So the your health and vitality is essential to support these this kind of intensity I'm speaking about. Anybody says that it doesn't matter doesn't know what they're talking about. Don't waste the time God's given you. I made my commitment to get to your enlightenment in 2002. It took 10 years. Cuz I used to go on these meditation retreats for 10 days. These are the past of retreats in the country in Massachusetts. I was living in New York by myself. And well after 10 days of sitting in meditation I was on fire baby. I didn't give a about anything. I'm serious. And I would go back on the subway and go back home again on the subway in Manhattan. I was feeling so inspired. Jump out of the airplane without the parachute. Leave everything and everyone behind. I was so inspired. But then one day went by two days went by three days went by and suddenly I started feeling fear. Can I really do this? It's so big. Oh my god I'm scared. Then I would wait. And waiting led to kind of you know days weeks and months. Cuz I had the I had the means to do it. My grandmother left me a small a small amount of money. It would have been enough to live on in India. So I had the means to do it. But the my will didn't last for three days after the meditation So then I would go back and do another retreat for maybe a longer time a month and whatever I was doing in those days I was doing a lot of practice. And then the the the thrill of the potential for my own enlightenment came back to me and I was so excited again. I wanted to lay down I wanted to jump out of the airplane without the parachute. Screw everybody screw everything. I don't care about anything. I'm out of here. Goodbye. And I went through this over and over again. I'd go on another retreat in a different part of America or different part of Europe. I'd wake up again feel the fire and then I would wait a couple days and then it would diminish. So that lasted for about five years. Yeah every time I went back on a retreat they would reconnect with the you said that you jumped out of the did it mean you were jumping out of the airplane without a parachute I was saying. Yes but it took me a while to get there. The feeling of excitement about having nothing knowing nothing and being no one and jumping out of the airplane without a parachute kept returning when I went in one intensity of practice my consciousness would be awakened. And I wanted to go all the way to the idea I want to go all the way I want to go all the way and I want to go all the way kept coming back. But I didn't act on it fast enough so then I lost touch with it. I even got scared. I was practicing celibacy in those days living by myself in Manhattan. Strict celibacy. And I was your age can you imagine what that was like? I was pretty serious man. So then after being celibate for almost three years I felt I learned what I needed to learn. So I finally convinced myself to at least come to India for three months. I made a commitment I'm going to get out of here in three months. And when I went I went to do another retreat there with a teacher that I knew. And after the retreat I was in ecstasy again. So I was sitting around this table with a lot of the other retreat participants drinking tea and I said I'm never going back home. I'm never going back. I'm never going back. I felt so free and so I felt the door to enlightenment was wide open. I felt India was giving me the the permission to seek for liberation. When I was living in New York and I told people I wanted to be enlightened they went uh-huh. So I said I'm never going back. And I didn't go back. But for a short time. But that was the feeling and I was sitting there drinking tea man. Never going back. That was jumping out of the plane. I was feeling so free so happy having nothing knowing nothing being no one. All things are possible enlightenment and liberation is a possibility very near at hand. And I was speaking to all these other people about Dharma and about enlightenment and about consciousness about what was possible. And that that was the life I wanted to live. That wasn't I was in another world. And all the other people I met there were temporarily awake to the same possibility cuz they'd been on the same retreat. If you shut up for 10 days and meditate then you get excited about consciousness. This is the people I want to be with. This is the consciousness I want to be in for the whole rest of my life. And I knew I was never going to compromise from that moment on and I never did. I'm a very controversial character baby. Don't you know that? I'm a very controversial person. So a lot of people love me and love me even more people hate me. A lot of whom have never met me. Oh him. That guy. So I don't have ordinary relationships with most people. So what is it like? It's very weird to be hated by so many people. I know I'm a good guy you see. I know my motives are very pure. But that's my problem not yours. But the thing is that I there's no going back for me so I doesn't mean anything. This is my whole life. This is the whole thing. I don't have another life. I don't want another life. But what's interesting to me about the story is that the the impulse when you every time it got reawakened was always very radical. You mean? If you want to be enlightened and go all the way you got to forget about those people. I was stupid. My mother and I used to be good friends so I told her to come to India quick. I introduced her to my guru right after I met my guru. Come I want you to meet my guru. I was very naive. My mother became my student and I tried to get my mother to transcend her ego. I mean when I think about it now it's very laughable but I was I was so naive it was ridiculous. So the thing is you can't take anybody with you on this journey. It's a it's a very radical departure. The most important thing is that your friends and your family know that you're okay and that you love them. You need to do whatever you need to do is let people know that you're okay and that you love them and give them the the emotional kind of emotional responses to let them know that you care about them so they they recognize it. It's the most you can do. But this radical position that you're talking about is a very rare thing. So most people just don't understand it. They say look Like I always say if you if you tell your friends you know I started meditating a month ago and I feel so much better. They say I know you're such a much much nicer person. You stopped smoking. You look much better. You seem to feel much better. Then but then if you love it if you start meditating we say and I'm interested in enlightenment then oh Now I don't trust you anymore. Cuz when you start to take the spiritual calling too seriously in a way that threatens the status quo people feel very threatened and they get worried about you. So you have to protect yourself from other people's concerns. What about me? What about our relationship? What about what about all those talks we had? Something happens to you when spirit calls you nothing matters nothing else matters anymore. It's very empowering. You have to be very strong because most people don't take the spiritual transformation absolutely seriously in the way that I'm teaching it. Some people do. They usually become teachers themselves. But for most people it's something you do as a part of life, it's not the whole of life. So for the post-modern sensibility it's acceptable if it's a part of life, but if it becomes the whole of your life then they think you lost your mind. Which you probably have. So So I was very naive about the whole thing. But I never stopped from that point on. But a funny story is when I actually cuz my my guru and I had a difficult relationship. In the beginning it was very sweet. So I called my mother to come to India. I was in New Delhi. I picked her up at the airport. I brought her to where he was staying. He was very cool in those days. He said the minute he saw her without blinking he said, "He's mine." I was like, "Oh shit." And she but she was cool. She just laughed. She said, "That's okay." I was impressed with how bold he was. But you're Israeli, man. You got a whole other trip to worry about this is this Israeli family and the It's very difficult. It's very suffocating. Because you realize there's a deeper way to be with other people. Less personal, more beautiful, more intimate, more authentic, more meaningful. More meaningful, more real. So then you then you say, "What am I worried about? This is a better deal." It's the depth that liberates us. If I meet greater meaning greater truth greater connection then you don't worry about these other things anymore. Then you can let go. But it's healing because you found something deeper. Deeper truth, a deeper relationship to life, right? That's what it's important to understand. So you're waking up a little bit so you're seeing there's a relationship between how people are and their depth of awakening. It takes a while to to see those things. Right? So then you say, "Well, I see this really works." It's possible to change in a bubble and become a deeper person. How intriguing. So that's beautiful and that's very meaningful. It takes a while to see that. But but when I was a seeker before I came to India in the spiritual groups that I was involved with I always looked to see who the most advanced people were. I used to try to get near them and have conversations with them because I wanted to learn from them. I wanted to be connected with them. And interestingly enough the people who were seemed to be higher higher up in the hierarchy around the teacher or whatever it was in those days did seem to know more. They had greater depth. Greater authority from their own experience. More spiritual independence and insight. True. To to to the vast numbers of people because it's too subtle. It's too real. I'm just being honest. How can we scale this? Let's let's make it happen. Let's invite the universe. It's just the the reality of the spiritual physics of what's got to happen to make this work. It's just too it's too demanding on an individual level. But what I I am fond of saying and repeating is if you have these kinds of experiences like you described or what other people were describing yesterday you get a glimpse. Oh my god, it's possible for people that don't know each other very well to experience this utopian possibility between us together. And if it's possible for people that don't know each other very well to spend having this experience for an hour then it's possible to have it for 2 hours. It's possible we can potentially be extended and deepened and can can become part of our living reality for more and more people. And whether it does or it doesn't is not the point. The point is that if you experience it in a in a way that's very convincing to you convinces your mind and frontal self of the possibility that this is real and it's true and it's possible for even beings to do. It's not just as a spiritual fantasy on a desert island somewhere, but between us here and now. Why? Because we've done it even though it's been a short time. I think it was just longer than 30 seconds. All things become possible. So it gives you confidence in human potential. We can do this. We may not do it because we're too ignorant and too selfish and too stupid, but that doesn't mean we can't do it. That doesn't mean that the possibility can't be actualized. So I find that this kind of Dharma practice together awakens conviction in our spiritual potential. Besides our just belief in your own capacity to develop to believe in your humanity's capacity to be most beautiful to itself, which is so it's so depressing in the world today to see how rotten and nasty we are. So we were answering your question. I think what I meant was that if you have this kind of experience and you become convinced that it's possible you become very positive about human potential. Which is very it's very healing. All utopian idealists want to scale. They want to tell the universe that we're awakening in ourselves internally for eternity. I'm all for that. I'm open to it. I just I'm I would need someone like you to convince me that such a thing is possible because I'm not sure that uh because I feel that what I'm speaking about is so coming from such a more subtle dimension of reality that I'm not so clear. I'm not so I'm not absolutely sure that I'm describing them as they actually are. I I realize I'm describing a part of a part of how they are appearing to me. And I have no doubt that what I'm describing is is part of reality is is part of what's real. But I'm aware that I don't have an absolutely clear perspective on them yet. And I might never. And also as part of my encouraging everybody to hold to hold all concepts very lightly. Because there's always always a danger of mythic absolutism even for integral thinkers. I know that I'm seeing reality clearly and not grasping onto particular concepts which show us the way things actually are. And as the thinking becomes too rigid then then the the rigidity of the thinking begins to obscure greater depth and greater vitality. So that's why I'm very cautious. And I want everybody to open up to these possibilities while being very uh gentle with their own overconfidence. It's a mixed bag because I'm sure your confidence about the fact that these are inherently self-existing and obviously so will give a lot of people a lot of confidence that they aren't independently self-existing. But the point is it might be true and it might not be true. It's very important to be very I have every every greater sensitivity and caution. So don't run into this blindly as if now I know how to do this. So focus on the capacity for listening to the silence. Because when you come together just listen to the empty silence. That's the source. And don't be overexcited about sharing your own ideas. Just focus on the silence. And the mystery that exists in the silence and see what comes from there, not from your mind.