Andrew Cohen & Lama Surya Das: "Talk about Nothing"

[Music] one of the things that I feel is what I feel is most important about the discovery nothingness or where you Karl calling dharmakaya is that when we discovered that who we are both first of all is it's not who we think we have been you know that we're not the condition psychological self that our deepest sense of identity is deeper than a psychological South it's deeper than an ethnic identity it's deeper than any of anything that we can see or locate in time its face or in form so when we awaken to that part of our self that that that can't be touched it can't be tasted that's not an object it can't be located but it is the deepest ground of our being when we realize that it's it's in its nature's infinite it's everywhere and nowhere simultaneously when we when we have enough spiritual maturity and enough trust to kind of allow ourselves to experience the the impossibility as you were speaking about of its of its true nature what what ultimately happens and what the goal is is that we we let go you know which is obviously not a new concept it's not a new idea but it's it's what it is so if we're if we if we have the mists spiritual maturity and the courage to once we actually begin to cognize and and are able to cognize that which we cannot be understood by the rational mind you know that that which is our our deepest nature we begin to let go of all relative notions itself it doesn't mean that we completely disregard them because relatively speaking all these different relative dimensions of stuff is still real but when we're no longer identified with them in the same way we were before they're just their relative sheaths or layers that are coverings over this this essentially empty or infinite ground that we all are and so the the effect this has is it frees us it frees us to kind of embrace the you know the gift the gift of evolutionary becoming in and then we're in a position to be able to to him to become a liberated and become an expression of what it could be to be a liberated human being and that also it also means embracing all the different dimensions of ourselves but in this case is from a perspective of spiritual enlightenment we would then choose to embrace all the dimensions of ourselves that would be useful that would be helpful that would be positive and life-affirming and life empowering herself in other and we would choose to from the perspective of this of this primordial emptiness or dharmakaya to to choose to not have a relationship with all these other different dimensions of ourselves that are unwholesome and and are antithetical to to the evolution and upliftment of the whole process so Andrew how do you feel that this evolutionary unfolding or this great release or recognition of our true nature which is wisdom or self-realization really informs a more empathic or your said positive or constructive like loving and kind and you know selfless way of life it sounds a little cool and mental sometimes to me and you know as we all know or I will say that I'm well positioned to criticize my own Buddhist tradition sometimes it only seems about enlightenment from the eyebrows up mind in mindfulness and awareness and intelligence and wisdom and discriminating awareness and so on what about the heart not to make it gross too much of a distinction but how does this relief whether seeing our true nature our timeless and boundless nature really helped the greater whole because this is really not about us individually anyway I mean we just hear like fireflies for a few moments on the cosmic clock how does this really inform or edify illuminate or even just entertain in a positive sense a greater whole all of us animal beings well well in well like for my own speaking from my own experience in in my discovery of this Dharma chi or this nothingness what what I what happened to me was what a merchant my own experience was the recognition and it's continued for almost 25 years to my day today amazement that there is a part of myself that is free from anything that ever happens and and and that dimension myself reveals itself daily and no matter what any other part of myself thinks might be the case or might be true there's another part of myself that is always completely untouched by anything that's ever happened and as always unconditionally radically profoundly enthusiastic about making this world a better place now it doesn't come from my condition this aspiration is this evolutionary spiritual aspiration to make the world a better place to leave the place the world is different place because I was here and help doesn't sound too grandiose it doesn't come from me it's not a personal it's not a personal desire that and who has but it's but it's it's what I continually discover myself there's a deeper part of myself that is very busy and very perpetually excited about that about the possibility of making the world a better place and so when we discover that that the deepest part of that what is emerging from the deepest part of ourselves is an aspiration to to to in some way improve the process that made it possible for us to be here and it doesn't come from the conditioned mind it doesn't come to the psychological self it doesn't come from our cultural it's a culture hasn't taught us that and yet we awaken to the deepest part of ourself if there seems to be a motive that's active within the process to to improve the universe that it created and the the experience of that is it guess what so much confidence in life well what I noticed and this is perhaps just local to my own you know the circles is there's a tendency to misunderstand nothingness or emptiness or Trotta or oneness with one taste these are all more or less than exactly for a denialism or not you don't have to do anything or what did you say there's a part of you that's already perfectly already enlightened you know I think well because it always already yeah so Jen tradition we call it primordial perfection and beyond notions of perfect and imperfect just that immaculate untouchable ground was ground that is not affected by our Karma and conditioning in this life the deathless dharmakaya nature of being so but I think that this this notion of the the positive Dharma the the luminous immediacy of beingness which it's really not a thing and yet it's very vividly alive like in Tibetan tradition we call it the rainbow body rainbow body of enlightenment not the big nothing not Nirvana as extinction but as joy as delight as bliss as deathless ease and so forth it's very important to keep in mind and and to see if it's really coming out in our life from our understanding or realization of this great you know nothingness so that there's no self and there's no anything and we're all one however we kind of just generally think about it so I myself feel you know in my prayer life or my meditations there's really a place that's not far from almost what we hear in the theistic traditions which are easier to talk about most of us have come from theistic judeo-christian probably backgrounds about surrender or letting go or not self-emptying I think the Christians call it it doesn't we have to slay the ego but self-emptying the less of myself is there this is the meaning of nothingness to me the less of myself is there the more room there is for Buddha nature to manifest the more room there is for the clear light to come through the more room there is for God to live here if you want to talk in theism and that's the big nothingness which really is something it's not nothing it's not a needless there's nothing it's a it's an effulgence radiance and that's part of what I call positive Buddhism which I think we need to talk about today not necessarily here but you know our public conversation in these decades not just about no self and impermanence and renunciation and how life sucks and then you die and the first noble truth dukkha which I translate is grukk screwed from the first suffering the satisfactory the positive Buddhism the freedom of possibility yes everything is dysfunctional but that's not the only way maybe we're together we may we can rewrite the Four Noble Truths for the for them for the postmodern post postmodern age well that's a great ambition okay [Applause] [Music]